i have two scenes you could cut, and will save you at least 5 minutes.
edit / or cut scene 29 "deep space 12" its a 3 minute scene and it really doesnt add much to the story cause the next scene it is mentioned that Garr struck again, so showing it is not needed...
same with scene 24 "Iss voyager" this scene is just shots of Garr wondering the corridor, still not adding anything, and then entering a cargo bay, both of which add nothing to the story....
and for these scenes do i have to bring up the music debate again?
and i know that you said you are not touching the holodeck scene but editing that down a bit will be less copyright infringement for TPIR on top of the fact that it could be any set and it would make sense as long as it had lcd screens and lights, maybe change it to a bridge of an older ship maybe the TWOK Ent refit bridge so that the TWOK uniforms would be explained? and that will save render times, as you have stated that the complex set for that scene has longer render times....
edit / or cut scene 29 "deep space 12" its a 3 minute scene and it really doesnt add much to the story cause the next scene it is mentioned that Garr struck again, so showing it is not needed...
So given the choice between finding and removing tedious and dry dialogue or a scene that's pure Rule of Cool combined with Crowning Music of Awesome, you choose the latter??? We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. And actually, showing Garr's evil deeds instead of just talking about them is a deliberate move--one common criticism of TNG was that cool happenings were too often heard of but not seen, and I didn't want to fall into the same trap here. If you feel there's redundancy between this and Thornton's message, then the answer is to cut dialogue from Thornton's message.
same with scene 24 "Iss voyager" this scene is just shots of Garr wondering the corridor, still not adding anything, and then entering a cargo bay, both of which add nothing to the story....
Again, we're going to have to agree to disagree. The purpose of this and both other "20th century song" sequences is to lay the groundwork for Scene 38, which we've already established is not going to change (more on that below).
and for these scenes do i have to bring up the music debate again?
There was a music debate?
and i know that you said you are not touching the holodeck scene but editing that down a bit will be less copyright infringement for TPIR on top of the fact that it could be any set and it would make sense as long as it had lcd screens and lights, maybe change it to a bridge of an older ship maybe the TWOK Ent refit bridge so that the TWOK uniforms would be explained? and that will save render times, as you have stated that the complex set for that scene has longer render times....
To open with "I know that you said you are not touching the holodeck scene," and then spend a whole paragraph telling me to change it, is...not logical!
Actually there's another explanation for the TWOK uniforms that we won't get until the very final scene. Given that we've seen gold Constitution models in both Reyf's ready room and Garr's office I very nearly did go the TWOK bridge route, but then someone brought up the fact that the "old bridge" gag had been used bigtime in "Relics," and I didn't want to do the same. (I actually made a test scene with different dialogue that assumed a TWOK bridge, but it came out terribly). And as a matter of record, doing anything with the TWOK bridge would actually be worse, because its render times are actually longer than TPiR's are. And no, it couldn't be "any set," LCD screens or not--most of the reason I chose TPiR to begin with was that it's such a surprise, but as people have guessed it's meant to show Garr's eccentricity (in addition to his nostalgia) in a way that talking about it never could.
The scene is gone, but feels like it mirrors the conversation from GENS a little too closely
Gone? Yes, it seems to repeat that a bit. But it works really well here.
@Tnpir: I understand that you cant cut the externals all out, but trim a few here and there. Without rewatching the whole thing, i would have you keep it more or less intact. if its 2 hours, so be it. You can release it in 2 parts at the same time, and have it available for download as one large file. I wouldnt worry too much; if its good storytelling, then keep it. Dont trim too much or you can ruin the story.
When i have free time (ha!) I may attempt to watch it through and give feedback
The callback to Generations (and the role reversal that's really obvious as a result) was deliberate; this scene is, literally, the first one that was conceptualized with Data, and is the primary reason he's on the Fitzgerald in this movie.
@homer: I'll tell you what, I'll meet you halfway. I still want to try and get rid of any "fat" that can be trimmed, but if it's still over two hours and twenty minutes (the projected total runtime) when we're through, I'll split it in half as you suggest.
ouch tnpir4002 you didnt have to flat out shut me down i was just trying to give you my suggestions like you asked the page before, if you did not want suggestions, then sorry that i read something wrong... as a film student while they maybe cool, I still feel that they dont add to the movie. and the music debate thing was something that i brought up the first time you asked for suggestions on the Iss voyager scene, on the music, i said that rock and roll doesnt exactly fit with the feel of the film, gave more than several scores that would have worked perfectly, and again you pretty much told me i have no clue what i am talking about and blew off all suggestions that were presented....
@homer: I should've been clearer, I didn't mean two halves in the sequel type sense, just two halves of the same movie, just broken down for easier downloading
I've watched the first 20mins again, and i can see where a few ppl come from, external shots of the ship are pretty cool, but feels like ALOT of external shots of the ship just doing fly bys past the camera, and thats only the first 20mins lol
Just checking in, I'm working on Scene 40, it's a pretty short scene as far as they go (until now, that honor was held by Scene 37B, "It's Showtime"), but it's time-consuming because of certain graphical elements. I'm just glad we're on an established filming set, the Fitzgerald bridge, otherwise it would be twice as bad. (Scene 41 takes place aboard the ISS Voyager, in a new location there, and then back to the Fitzgerald to visit another new set we haven't visited yet, so the next few scenes are going to be time-consuming too).
Also, on a whim I decided to do what so many of my YouTube viewers seem to be doing, and typed in the name of the movie at the Google homepage, just to see how many hits there'd be. There's quite a few (list to follow), but what caught my eye was a series of remarks on the Trekmovie.com page for Star Trek Phoenix:
59. entropy - May 5, 2010
Looks awful…may I STRONGLY RECOMMEND “Star Trek Specter” found on youtube…saw this the other day and was blown away by the attention to detail and the great music cues, not to mention a very good story.
69. CaptainHawk1 - May 6, 2010
@ 59.
Star Trek Specter… seriously? With the really bad 1990 CGI animation, terrible voice acting and music stolen from Voyager? You were blown away by this? I’d be embarrassed to admit that.
This also from CaptainHawk1:
68. CaptainHawk1 - May 6, 2010
I hate fan productions because they all suck on so many different levels. Though not perfect (it’s a fan production, folks) this was actually enjoyable and more to the point, watchable.
See my response:
123. tnpir4002 - July 12, 2010 @CaptainHawk: Forgive me but to say that you “hate” all fan productions because they “suck” is prejudicial and, if you’ll forgive me, arrogane and presumptuous. Fan productions can’t all be what Of Gods and Men was; not everyone has access to professional tools so some of us have to work with what we have. “Specter” is my baby and it’s been a work in progress for almost four years now (those sets don’t build themselves you know). Yes, I re-used some music from the series and movies; yes the voice acting is somewhat lackluster (I’m doing all the parts for right now but once it’s finished I’m replacing my temp tracks with a full ensemble cast). And admittedly, the Poser 4 characters I’m using aren’t the greatest ones available (higher-res characters from DAZ are available but they would be impractical given the computing power I have available). But to compare it to “1990 CGI” is frankly insulting; I’m using consumer-grade tools and a few prefab characters, and what’s there is the best I have.
If you hate all fan productions, I’d challenge you to do better. Otherwise, don’t just blindly insult other peoples’ hard work.
I couldn't believe the nerve of that individual, to say the least. Blindly insulting all fan productions because they "suck" crosses the line, bigtime, especially after slamming mine as "bad 1990 CGI animation." Fan production values aren't always very high (and some are downright abysmal), but at the end of the day someone put a lot of work (and usually a lot of heart) into their production, and no one but no one deserves to have theirs slammed like that, by someone who very obviously didn't view the entire project and who doesn't understand the enthusiasm required for any serious fan film effort, CG or otherwise. Respectful critiques are one thing--blatant flaming by the Fan Dumb is something else entirely.
Some other links (main topic as well as honorable mentions):
Alright guys, I call upon you to once again help me with something.
Several posts made by viewers early on in this thread have stuck by me, and now that I'm getting close to the end of this project I'm starting to think back to the beginning. Specifically:
-the comments that Reyf's fear of Garr from the very outset doesn't seem justified, since even after the shuttle incident Reyf shouldn't fear him enough to dub him a "criminal mastermind" and so forth
-also the issue of how Garr has managed to keep himself hidden for so long (essentially all the impossibilities that are referenced in the scene in Data's quarters)
I dodged the issue at the time, and those critiques weren't brought back up after the retool, but I figured I'd finally address them and see what you guys thought about it:
Originally, Reyf was to get the news about Garr's return not from Mellis II but from an agent of Section 31, who appeared in his quarters in the middle of the night Luther Sloan-style. The conversation would have revealed that Garr was actually an agent of Section 31, and provided a few more details about the stolen components, as well as 31's suspicion of "strange activity going on in the Beta Reticuli system." I dropped that very early on for fear that mention of Section 31 would overshadow Reyf's personal stake in the mission, but now I'm wondering if it mightn't be wise to go back and re-insert this scene where it's supposed to be. This would replace Scene 6, "Call from Mellis II," and would explain everything: Garr's ability to stay hidden, the underground base (which would be explained to be a Section 31 facility that Garr simply took over rather than constructed), as well as how he managed to construct the ISS Voyager by himself and in record time, along with all the other advanced knowledge he possesses.
Makes sense. *nods* But, that would beg the question: wouldn't Section 31 rather go after him themselves with their equally clandestine / scarcely legal technology / ships, rather than recruit Reyf + the Fitzgerald & (in the process) touch-off a panic, and/or possibly cause a ripple effect back to themselves or 31's legitimate Starfleet contacts/handlers and potentially prematurely expose operatives?
@Hellsgate: those are precisely the reasons I didn't go with the Section 31 angle in the first place! It could in theory be rationalized in such a way as to address those concerns, but it'd take some doing (and would probably require a bookend appearance at the end of the movie, an idea I'm not exactly in love with).
Alright, after a longer-than-I'd-like haitus, Scene 40 is up! This is the scene were we finally get our Alternate Character Interpretation for Garr, but be warned, it ends with a real Tear Jerker. Approach with caution! At the very least, hopefully this scene will help Reyf's explanation in Scene 38 make more sense. If not, then Scene 41 definitely will!
We're likely going to have another stopdown of some length before the next scene, we've got one more USS Fitzgerald set to visit, but first I have to build it.
I can't wait to see a co-operative fleet of Klingons, Humans & "other(s)" taking out the Fitzgerald aand/or the I.S.S. Voyager or possibly a "last-second plot twist" accomplice. MMMM..the thought of the Fitz head-butting the Voyager in a mutual-destruction sacrifice scene.
The next scene takes place in Science Lab 4 aboard the Fitzgerald. I've worked very hard on the set itself but I'm feeling a little ambivalent about the design (for reasons that will become obvious as soon as you see the scene--when it's done, that is). Also, now that the set is finished, this scene is likely to take a while to produce since it features the female android in a prominent (and, for the first time, speaking) role. The main reason we haven't seen more of her since Scene 19A is that she takes a while to render. So, just be patient while I work on Scene 41.
Just a headsup, at the end of Scene 41, Reyf will receive a call from the bridge announcing that the ship has arrived at Sector 585. He returns to the bridge, and there's some procedural stuff about locating the ISS Voyager before he orders an intercept course.
Then we have another scene that'll require a stopdown, "The Extraction Process," in which we actually see Garr going about the risky task of extracting the verteron particle energy from the black hole. Longtime fans will recognize this element from the very first draft of the movie, and it's one that I've been saving some particularly neat stuff for. This is the third and final "20th century song montage" sequence of the film. The reason this one is going to require another stopdown is because I have to build a Voyager cargo bay (fairly straightforward), and then design and construct the prop for Garr's anti-time machine.
This is the part where you guys come in. The anti-time device is described in the script thusly: "A towering colossus of glass and metal tubes, energy coils and transmission dishes that looks as though it could be a reactor, a field generator, or a weapon--or perhaps all three. The device has a half-finished industrial look to it, as though its builder was focused more on function than on form."
But so far, I've been unable to come up with a design I like. Now you know everything that this machine is meant to do: capture and store exotic particle energy, to be combined with verteron particle energy to generate a massive (but contained) anti-time eruption, energy which will be released only at the right time. It has to look futuristic and exotic, even by Star Trek standards.
I'm throwing the floor open for ideas, anyone who can lend an idea or a hand to this part of the effort will get their own callout during the closing credits!
I got the VO's done for Scene 41 last night, but I've made a discovery on Foundation3D that's going to have a very visible impact on Specter. All I'm going to say at this point is to pay very careful attention to the Fitzgerald the next time the exterior is shown.
... but I've made a discovery on Foundation3D that's going to have a very visible impact on Specter. ...
You found Prologic9's old Enterprise model (the one he released to the public to be finished by someone else because he decided rather than to correct the things he wasn't satisfied with to start anew)?
You found Prologic9's old Enterprise model (the one he released to the public to be finished by someone else because he decided rather than to correct the things he wasn't satisfied with to start anew)?
I didn't want to spoil the surprise and I also wasn't expecting this much speculation so I'll just say it. Someone with access to better tools than I have finally did their own Galaxy-X class; on a random jaunt through Foundation3D.com I found it, and am delighted to find that in addition to looking much better, it renders about three times as fast as the USS Fitzgerald model I have now. I'm even going to try and put in some recessed lighting onto the model, but either way when we see it from the outside next it'll be this new version (the fifth USS Fitzgerald I might add).
Posts
edit / or cut scene 29 "deep space 12" its a 3 minute scene and it really doesnt add much to the story cause the next scene it is mentioned that Garr struck again, so showing it is not needed...
same with scene 24 "Iss voyager" this scene is just shots of Garr wondering the corridor, still not adding anything, and then entering a cargo bay, both of which add nothing to the story....
and for these scenes do i have to bring up the music debate again?
and i know that you said you are not touching the holodeck scene but editing that down a bit will be less copyright infringement for TPIR on top of the fact that it could be any set and it would make sense as long as it had lcd screens and lights, maybe change it to a bridge of an older ship maybe the TWOK Ent refit bridge so that the TWOK uniforms would be explained? and that will save render times, as you have stated that the complex set for that scene has longer render times....
So given the choice between finding and removing tedious and dry dialogue or a scene that's pure Rule of Cool combined with Crowning Music of Awesome, you choose the latter??? We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. And actually, showing Garr's evil deeds instead of just talking about them is a deliberate move--one common criticism of TNG was that cool happenings were too often heard of but not seen, and I didn't want to fall into the same trap here. If you feel there's redundancy between this and Thornton's message, then the answer is to cut dialogue from Thornton's message.
Again, we're going to have to agree to disagree. The purpose of this and both other "20th century song" sequences is to lay the groundwork for Scene 38, which we've already established is not going to change (more on that below).
There was a music debate?
To open with "I know that you said you are not touching the holodeck scene," and then spend a whole paragraph telling me to change it, is...not logical!
Actually there's another explanation for the TWOK uniforms that we won't get until the very final scene. Given that we've seen gold Constitution models in both Reyf's ready room and Garr's office I very nearly did go the TWOK bridge route, but then someone brought up the fact that the "old bridge" gag had been used bigtime in "Relics," and I didn't want to do the same. (I actually made a test scene with different dialogue that assumed a TWOK bridge, but it came out terribly). And as a matter of record, doing anything with the TWOK bridge would actually be worse, because its render times are actually longer than TPiR's are. And no, it couldn't be "any set," LCD screens or not--most of the reason I chose TPiR to begin with was that it's such a surprise, but as people have guessed it's meant to show Garr's eccentricity (in addition to his nostalgia) in a way that talking about it never could.
Sorry, but Scene 38 is off-limits.
Scene 39B now available for viewing! This one's a must-see.
@Tnpir: I understand that you cant cut the externals all out, but trim a few here and there. Without rewatching the whole thing, i would have you keep it more or less intact. if its 2 hours, so be it. You can release it in 2 parts at the same time, and have it available for download as one large file. I wouldnt worry too much; if its good storytelling, then keep it. Dont trim too much or you can ruin the story.
When i have free time (ha!) I may attempt to watch it through and give feedback
@homer: I'll tell you what, I'll meet you halfway. I still want to try and get rid of any "fat" that can be trimmed, but if it's still over two hours and twenty minutes (the projected total runtime) when we're through, I'll split it in half as you suggest.
sorry for just trying to help.
Also, on a whim I decided to do what so many of my YouTube viewers seem to be doing, and typed in the name of the movie at the Google homepage, just to see how many hits there'd be. There's quite a few (list to follow), but what caught my eye was a series of remarks on the Trekmovie.com page for Star Trek Phoenix:
This also from CaptainHawk1:
See my response:
I couldn't believe the nerve of that individual, to say the least. Blindly insulting all fan productions because they "suck" crosses the line, bigtime, especially after slamming mine as "bad 1990 CGI animation." Fan production values aren't always very high (and some are downright abysmal), but at the end of the day someone put a lot of work (and usually a lot of heart) into their production, and no one but no one deserves to have theirs slammed like that, by someone who very obviously didn't view the entire project and who doesn't understand the enthusiasm required for any serious fan film effort, CG or otherwise. Respectful critiques are one thing--blatant flaming by the Fan Dumb is something else entirely.
Some other links (main topic as well as honorable mentions):
http://www.trekunited.com/community/index.php?showtopic=19739
http://www.joseralat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1193
http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=121909&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=add776a53c5388334937ceeb49d77494
http://startrekreviewed.blogspot.com/2009/06/94.html
http://acruxcontent.blogspot.com/2010/04/star-trek-specter-prepare-to-be-amazed.html
http://trekforum.stardust1.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=19&start=0 (honorable mention)
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=2&t=873340&highlight=Poser (honorable mention; now with its own main topic)
http://trekmovie.com/2010/05/05/fanmade-star-trek-phoenix-new-25th-century-fan-series-releases-first-episode/ (scroll down to comments for quoted exchange)
'just cos' is usually their answer
Several posts made by viewers early on in this thread have stuck by me, and now that I'm getting close to the end of this project I'm starting to think back to the beginning. Specifically:
-the comments that Reyf's fear of Garr from the very outset doesn't seem justified, since even after the shuttle incident Reyf shouldn't fear him enough to dub him a "criminal mastermind" and so forth
-also the issue of how Garr has managed to keep himself hidden for so long (essentially all the impossibilities that are referenced in the scene in Data's quarters)
I dodged the issue at the time, and those critiques weren't brought back up after the retool, but I figured I'd finally address them and see what you guys thought about it:
What do you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c55vCzG-AcM
We're likely going to have another stopdown of some length before the next scene, we've got one more USS Fitzgerald set to visit, but first I have to build it.
Confrontation with Garr is now two scenes away.
The next scene takes place in Science Lab 4 aboard the Fitzgerald. I've worked very hard on the set itself but I'm feeling a little ambivalent about the design (for reasons that will become obvious as soon as you see the scene--when it's done, that is). Also, now that the set is finished, this scene is likely to take a while to produce since it features the female android in a prominent (and, for the first time, speaking) role. The main reason we haven't seen more of her since Scene 19A is that she takes a while to render. So, just be patient while I work on Scene 41.
Just a headsup, at the end of Scene 41, Reyf will receive a call from the bridge announcing that the ship has arrived at Sector 585. He returns to the bridge, and there's some procedural stuff about locating the ISS Voyager before he orders an intercept course.
Then we have another scene that'll require a stopdown, "The Extraction Process," in which we actually see Garr going about the risky task of extracting the verteron particle energy from the black hole. Longtime fans will recognize this element from the very first draft of the movie, and it's one that I've been saving some particularly neat stuff for. This is the third and final "20th century song montage" sequence of the film. The reason this one is going to require another stopdown is because I have to build a Voyager cargo bay (fairly straightforward), and then design and construct the prop for Garr's anti-time machine.
This is the part where you guys come in. The anti-time device is described in the script thusly: "A towering colossus of glass and metal tubes, energy coils and transmission dishes that looks as though it could be a reactor, a field generator, or a weapon--or perhaps all three. The device has a half-finished industrial look to it, as though its builder was focused more on function than on form."
But so far, I've been unable to come up with a design I like. Now you know everything that this machine is meant to do: capture and store exotic particle energy, to be combined with verteron particle energy to generate a massive (but contained) anti-time eruption, energy which will be released only at the right time. It has to look futuristic and exotic, even by Star Trek standards.
I'm throwing the floor open for ideas, anyone who can lend an idea or a hand to this part of the effort will get their own callout during the closing credits!
the 9/10th Doctor TARDIS is just a big green core that looks unfinished.
and some random images of futuristic stuff
I got the VO's done for Scene 41 last night, but I've made a discovery on Foundation3D that's going to have a very visible impact on Specter. All I'm going to say at this point is to pay very careful attention to the Fitzgerald the next time the exterior is shown.
Wrong.
I didn't want to spoil the surprise and I also wasn't expecting this much speculation so I'll just say it. Someone with access to better tools than I have finally did their own Galaxy-X class; on a random jaunt through Foundation3D.com I found it, and am delighted to find that in addition to looking much better, it renders about three times as fast as the USS Fitzgerald model I have now. I'm even going to try and put in some recessed lighting onto the model, but either way when we see it from the outside next it'll be this new version (the fifth USS Fitzgerald I might add).
Scene 41 coming soon