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Star Trek: Lower Decks [Spoilers]

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  • markmasseymarkmassey393 StaffordshirePosts: 521Member
    While i admit that crying over a cartoon series makes me look ridiculous, if you think i'm bad you should see the legend of Korra forums.... those are some dark pits of rage that once you trip into... it's quite possible that you'll never see the light of day again :#
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    The Official viewing figures for Lower Deck on CTV (The channel in Canada that is show the show) are out.
    It looks like the leaking viewing numbers where right, they where only off by 100,000 or so for the better. While the numbers are better, it really does not make a difference as they are still well below a million.

    @Wishbone_Ash, I don't want to see people lose there jobs. Actors can find work again and with the current situation, I am sure you are going to see more animations come along. It far cheaper to make than live action and can be done from home. Something that can't be done with Live action.
    As for the crew, it all come down to there contracts. If they work for the studio they can be moved onto another show or a new show in development. If they are working on a contract basis then they have to applied for the new Job. But given that the film industry is not moving in LA it does not make much difference at the moment.

    The "Fans" that want this show cancelled also don't want to see them lose there jobs, they just want Kurtzman (Bad Robot and Secret Hideout) gone. But given the rumours of Civil Wars going on over Trek that could happen sooner than later. Kurtzman has taken $20 Million dollar profit earning franchise to Zero in only a few years. (This is the profit they where making when no Star Trek production where in operations.) The Mechanise they are currently selling is not making them anything worth singing about now.
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    Well I watched the Third episode, It is getting better as it goes along. But the jokes are still not funny.

    Good to see Mariner put in her place, but it looks like she did not learn anything from the experience.
    All what was the message of this episode. Be a Slacker to be good at your job?
  • SamuraiSamurai184 Posts: 408Member
    So I decided to go look at these "disastrous viewing numbers", and figure out whether this was actually franchise doom...

    Lower Decks first episode AMA (Average Minute Audience) was approx 527,000- which puts it at #25 of the top 30 programs broadcast on CTV. Only 8 shows registered over 1m AMA. For context, CTV Evening News airs five nights a week in the prime slot (18:00-19:00) and accrued just over double the AMA of Lower Decks.

    For our international readers... CTV is Canada's most watched network, and CTV News holds a 40% viewership advantage over other outlets. To reiterate: totally new cast and program, a single episode's worth of metrics, in the top 25 programs on Canada's most popular channel.

    And yet... articles like this abound:

    "Star Treks: Lower Decks continues to struggle to find a fanbase, as a new rumor suggests that Canadian viewership numbers are devastatingly low."

    How can a show "continue to struggle" after one episode? That kind of sloppy "journalism" is a sign that the decision to condemn was taken regardless of the data, and should be your first warning that you're being led to a conclusion.

    This franchise has a multitude of problems that need to be addressed - it has done for some time - but Lower Decks doesn't actually seem to be one of them.
    P5ych0p4th
    "Perfect. Then that's the way it shall be."
  • evil_genius_180evil_genius_1801843 Posts: 9,995Member
    Samurai wrote: »
    "Star Treks: Lower Decks continues to struggle to find a fanbase, as a new rumor suggests that Canadian viewership numbers are devastatingly low."

    Tranlsation: Someone spoon fed us a bit of information that we didn't bother to attempt to verify, we just ran with it.
    P5ych0p4th
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    @Samurai the rating also does not take into account that the show did not just aired on CTV in Canada. It was then available for Streaming on CTV or a cable company streaming service after it had aired. These days, most people don't actually watch live TV and the fact that you now have lots of other channels to chose from. Compared to 80's & 90's when Terrestrial TV only had about 5 channels to chose from.

    I mean Look at Discovery here in the UK, It aired the first season last summer on E4. The numbers started off well (Well for the channel but not for past Trek shows shown on terrestrial TV including re-runs) then drop to practically no one watching it. E4 has not even announced if they are going to show Season 2.
    Why was the numbers so small. Two reason for it.
    1st, The show is bad, and people stopped watching. But it does have it fans.
    2nd, It on Netflix and most house holds in the UK have it. So someone could have started to watch it on E4 and instead of waiting a week for the next episode, they just binged it on Netflix and caught season 2 as well.

    Okay this question is for those in Canada and the States. It not Lower Decks related but it is Trek.
    With Season 1 of Discovery, does it have the Netflix logo after the end credits? The reason I ask is because They outright paid for it.
    I know on the UK copy of BSG Miniseries, it has Sky Logo because they paid Half of the Miniseries budget to get it made and have exclusive rights to it in the UK.
  • Wishbone_AshWishbone_Ash267 Posts: 244Member
    edited August 2020 #68
    See, a lot of you weren't around when TNG started, but that show was *hated* by the core TOS fanbase. As in utterly detested. And it had much of the same core creative team from TOS itself! But the fans spread exaggerated rumors that Gene was never in charge and that it was actually his lawyer who was running the show. (ok there is grain of truth in that, but that's a different story)

    But anyway, TNG created a huge uproar, the ship design was hated (and still is in some circles) Wesley Crusher was (perhaps rightly) criticized for being a Mary-Sue, and the quality of the early episodes was widely panned (perhaps also not without good reason) - the fact is, TNG was extremely controversial, and rather hated by the TOS faithful. The show only started to produce quality episodes on a sporadic basis in season 2 and only started to achieve the consistency of brilliance it became renowned for during the third season. These days we look back at TNG as a TV entertainment landmark, and rightly so, but it was a very difficult and precarious show to make in its early years.

    Now I'm not saying Lower Decks will ever be an entertainment landmark (nor do I think that is even the point of such a show) but back in the 80's when life was way the f*ck more chilled than it is now, viewers gave TNG nearly three years to get its act together.

    Just bear this in mind.
    Post edited by Wishbone_Ash on
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    @Wishbone_Ash Your right there was hate from some Trek fans towards TNG, but if I recall it was mainly those that grew watching TOS on first airing and early 70's. Those of us that grew up in the late 70's and early 80's did not hate as much.

    But the difference between then and now, was over the course of the first season those that hated the show before it even came out started to love it because of the characters and they where likeable. There was also good episodes in that first season, so they carried on watching. They also came back for the second season where their was even better episodes and a few stinkers (shade of Grey). By the end of the second season, those that complained about the show now loved it.

    DS9 also got a lot of hate before it came out, but the same thing happened with that. Hell even some fans now consider it to be the best Trek show of all time, even over TOS. (Though there are some original TOS fan will never put a spin-off over it, even if it is better. ;) )

    With Discovery we are two season in and the Characters are unlikable, hell I could not even tell you the names of the bridge crew, without looking it up. Yes I know they are background characters but they appear in every episode and some even have lines in each.
    Look at trek pre 2009 and compare to the trek we got post, the writing in pre is far superior and a lot of those episode have not dated at all. The same can't be said for Discovery and Picard. Both of those shows will be dated in only a few years.
    When TNG came out you never heard anyone say TOS was dated except maybe in the FX, but we could over look that, because we had grown up on a staple 60's and 70's sci-fi show and not just Trek.


    Now to keep this post on the subject of the thread.
    I'll admit I hated the idea of Lower Decks, This kind of show just does not belong in Trek. I detested it more after each Trailer came out. But I have watch all the episodes so far.
    I don't find it funny, and hated the first episode. But with the second episode I found something that was more like Pre 2009 Trek, which I found enjoyable.
    With the third episode I liked some aspects of it. But I hate the end message with the ship subplot or was it the main plot? "You can excel at a Job if you are a slacker."
    I still don't like the two main characters but slowly like the mini characters.
    Point is I can see potential of this show, but I doubt it will get there because who is over seeing it all. (Yes I don't like Kurtzman and think he and his company should be removed form Trek altogether.)

    Now lets see if Mike McMahan can stand up to Kurtzman and get his vison out like Ira Steven Behr did with Rick Berman?

  • evil_genius_180evil_genius_1801843 Posts: 9,995Member
    edited August 2020 #70
    See, a lot of you weren't around when TNG started, but that show was *hated* by the core TOS fanbase. As in utterly detested. And it had much of the same core creative team from TOS itself! But the fans spread exaggerated rumors that Gene was never in charge and that it was actually his lawyer who was running the show. (ok there is grain of truth in that, but that's a different story)

    But anyway, TNG created a huge uproar, the ship design was hated (and still is in some circles) Wesley Crusher was (perhaps rightly) criticized for being a Mary-Sue, and the quality of the early episodes was widely panned (perhaps also not without good reason) - the fact is, TNG was extremely controversial, and rather hated by the TOS faithful. The show only started to produce quality episodes on a sporadic basis in season 2 and only started to achieve the consistency of brilliance it became renowned for during the third season. These days we look back at TNG as a TV entertainment landmark, and rightly so, but it was a very difficult and precarious show to make in its early years.

    Now I'm not saying Lower Decks will ever be an entertainment landmark (nor do I think that is even the point of such a show) but back in the 80's when life was way the f*ck more chilled than it is now, viewers gave TNG nearly three years to get its act together.

    Just bear this in mind.

    Don't ever try to figure out the thought process on Star Trek fans. (or fans of any major franchise) They hate most everything when it's coming out and when it first comes out. They hated the Excelsior so much when Star Trek III came out. So many fans wrote hate letters to Paramount that the design was going to be shelved after Star Trek IV. They also halted plans to introduce a brand new design for the Enterprise-A and once more went with teh Connie refit. However, when they did TNG, they needed ships, so the Excelsior go re-used as the Hood in the first episode. It got used so much and it became a familiar sight that it became a fan favorite design.

    Lower Decks was always going to be controversial, even without fans being inherently picky. Not only is it animated, which was only done once before in canon Star Trek (and many fans debate the canon nature of that show) but it's a comedy. Comedy isn't something usually associated with Star Trek. Yes, there's lots of comedy. One of the best episodes of TOS is most definitely The Trouble With Tribbles. That's a funny episode. Star Trek IV was also a really well Star Trek comedy. And, of course, Brent Spiner was really funny as Data. However, none of those series were comedies, those were just fun episodes (and a movie) to break up the all serious nature of the series. Lower Decks, on the other hand, is a straight comedy. That's not going to resonate well with a lot of fans. There were a lot of complaints as soon as it was announced as an animated comedy, long before we knew anything at all about the series beyond that.
    Post edited by evil_genius_180 on
    Griffynn
  • evil_genius_180evil_genius_1801843 Posts: 9,995Member
    Against my better judgment, I watched episode three. I have to say, it wasn't quite as bad as the first two, but the show still doesn't resonate with me. The main thing that this show does that doesn't really suit my particular taste in comedy is that it exaggerates every situation. The thing with task times and the giant red clocks was ridiculous, as was the over the top reaction of the aliens to the wood thing instead of a crystal. I mean, there have been insults on Star Trek before, there were a few episodes of Enterprise that dealt with Archer and his crew doing the wrong thing and aliens getting mad about it. But, they didn't all out attack and graffiti the ship over a simple mistake. So, I think that's what gets me most about this show, is they go way over the top with these scenarios to try and be funny. To me, it's just not funny. Though, I did something I haven't done before with this show. I laughed. Once. It was right at the beginning of the episode, when the security chief broke Boimler's violin.
  • markmasseymarkmassey393 StaffordshirePosts: 521Member
    edited September 2020 #72
    It might just be because this pokes my discworld brain... but this scene cracked me up..

    Post edited by markmassey on
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    I have to admit it Lower Decks is getting better as it goes along.
    But I still don't find it funny.
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    Is anyone still watching this.
    I missed the last episode and in no rush to catch up with it.
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    @Freak

    I rather like it. I see it as more of an Hommage, than an actual trek show and as such it’s quite enjoyable. The jokes usually don’t land for me, but it’s not like it’s aggressively unfunny (like TBBT for example). The Humor for the most part does not take me out of the world. That just happens, when they overdo the violence. Which has gotten less over the episodes. But still they could base the action a little more in a physical reality.

    It’s a show that’s clearly written by fans of the original canon. Kurtzman might be an EP or something, but it would not surprise me, if there’s almost no input from him.

    Now ... I would have liked to see that concept as a live action show, that isn’t a comedy and I could do without the bridge crew. But overall it’s harmless fun. Especially if you get most of the references.

    I mean, what else is there to do during this apocalypse? 😁
  • ViperViper1185 Posts: 677Administrator
    Also still watching and apparently unlike you guys I think the show is very funny :p Latest episode had some really good bits.

    This is easily the best trek show of the new crop. Better than some of the old stuff as well.

  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    edited September 2020 #77
    I would agree with the best Trek to come out of Secret Hideout and Bad Robot.

    But I would not say it better than some of the old stuff.
    Okay it might be a little better than the Voyager episode "Threshold" :tongue:
    Post edited by Freak on
  • count23count23261 Posts: 681Member
    Ditto, it's the only trek show I've been actively looking forward to seeing the next episode of. STP and Disco I'd catch up on whenever, this i really am excited for.
    Formerly Nadesico.

    Current Projects:
    Ambassador Class
  • ViperViper1185 Posts: 677Administrator
    Freak wrote: »
    I would agree with the best Trek to come out of Secret Hideout and Bad Robot.

    But I would not say it better than some of the old stuff.
    Okay it might be a little better than the Voyager episode "Threshold" :tongue:

    Oh, it's better than Enterprise for sure. And better than a good portion of Voyager.
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    edited September 2020 #80
    @Viper Really? better than Enterprise Season 3&4?

    I won't say it better than Voyager weak episodes except then "Threshold", but it almost there.
    I think the humour is one of it weakest points, which puts Voyager in front.
    But it only the first season, so it can improve.
    Post edited by Freak on
  • ViperViper1185 Posts: 677Administrator
    Oh, without a doubt its better. Every episode of Lower Decks have been a ton of fun so far. Plus, it might not be funny to you, but I find it very funny :)
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    What is it with you and Threshold? I remember quite liking it, when I first watched it probably in the 90s. It wasn’t until quite some time later when I actually had access to the Internet and could read up on what other fans were thinking. When it comes to re-watching Voyager it’s one of the episodes I am actually looking forward to or at least don’t skip. True, when you really think about the plot it makes pretty much no sense. But somehow it’s fun anyway. I mean when you get down to it, it’s really a simple story of a failed science experiment ... And I like those 😁

    I never got all the hate for this episode in particular, when Voyager had so much worse to offer. To me the worst offence a TV show or movie for that matter can commit is just being plain boring. And threshold isn’t that. 😁
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    edited September 2020 #83
    @P5ych0p4th
    I got nothing against Threshold, I just find it to be a very bad story. As you can tell I think it is the worst of classic Trek.
    Now don't me wrong, I won't skip the episode if it comes on and I do enjoy the first two acts of it. It got some really interesting ideas in it. But it the whole third act that is the let down.
    Why would Paris kidnap Janeway to mate with her, if he is attracted to other woman on the ship. (There is nothing between him a Torres yet.) Would he not kidnap them?

    Sure each of the other series had their stinker, TOS: Spock's Brian, TNG: Shades of Grey, DS9: The Storyteller and Ent: These are the Voyagers...
    like I said, I just fine Threshold to be the worst of the worst of Classic Trek.
    But even those other episodes I have mentioned are still far better than Discovery and Picard. (Sorry for me there is no re-watchabilty factor to them, and the writing is just no where near in the same league even with those bad episodes, Yes even Shade of Grey.)


    Yeah I don't find the humour in Lower Decks to be funny. Maybe it because it Star Trek and I expect a higher standard and intelligent humour, with the odd slap stick thrown in every now and then. They managed to do it with classic Trek. I just find toilet level humour dose not works with Trek. (I do find it funny in other things)


    I will agree the show has got better as it gone alone. But it still not at the level I expect for an adult show. Yes this is meant to be a adult animated Trek show, but the writing quality is that for a young teen show.
    If you removed anything relating to Trek and placed this show in the Star Wars or B5 Universes with all references made to them would it still work?
    One thing for sure, I would most likely find it funny if it was set in the Star Wars universe.

    Trek has always been the thinking person show.
    Wars, well we had everything under the sun and that was even before Disney bought it. So a show like this does not seem out of place.
    Maybe if Kurtzman said this show was a parody I would enjoy it more.
    Post edited by Freak on
  • ViperViper1185 Posts: 677Administrator
    Freak wrote: »
    Yeah I don't find the humour in Lower Decks to be funny. Maybe it because it Star Trek and I expect a higher standard and intelligent humour, with the odd slap stick thrown in every now and then. They managed to do it with classic Trek. I just find toilet level humour dose not works with Trek. (I do find it funny in other things)


    I will agree the show has got better as it gone alone. But it still not at the level I expect for an adult show. Yes this is meant to be a adult animated Trek show, but the writing quality is that for a young teen show.
    If you removed anything relating to Trek and placed this show in the Star Wars or B5 Universes with all references made to them would it still work?
    One thing for sure, I would most likely find it funny if it was set in the Star Wars universe.

    Trek has always been the thinking person show.
    Wars, well we had everything under the sun and that was even before Disney bought it. So a show like this does not seem out of place.
    Maybe if Kurtzman said this show was a parody I would enjoy it more.

    That's a very high brow attitude to have. And I disagree that the humor before was any better. There are some super cheesy episodes in TOS and TNG as well. Episodes that I frankly don't like cause I find the humor off putting.

    Let me ask you this, if Orville was actually Trek, would you be ok with it? Because Lower Decks feels like Orville to me. Sure, it doesn't cover the subjects that Orville was doing, but the storylines actually have a lot of depth, but the humor is similar.

    Anyway, I'm not trying to make you like it. I just think the justifications are bit weird. Star Trek, as a franchise, should not be considered as more intelligent or whatever than other franchises. It should allow for everything to happen. People shouldn't have to like absolutely everything that happens in a franchise either.
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    The Orville is an original IP, there is no expectation from it when it started.
    I like the humour it, but some jokes in the first season did not really work for me. Also the whole show came across as trying to do TNG style stories with humour. So I saw it was more a Parody for me.

    With Season 2 about 75% of the humour was dropped to make the focus more on the stories and the stories where not set up just for Jokes. (Not that the first season had many of those.) The show really took off from there, and I am looking forward to the 3rd season.


    Take it as a plus or a minus, overall The Orville is classic trek, just in different clothing and far more humour in it. But that to be expected when the majority of people working on that show are the same team that worked on TNG, DS9, VOY and ENT and are fans of Trek. The Orville could have been Discovery, Seth McFarlane did go to CBS with a new show proposal, but due to the deal with Bad Robot, CBS was unable to greenlight it. (Part of CBS deal with Bad Robot was that they where not allowed to make a new Star Trek show until ten years after Star Trek 09 came out. Bad Robot also got first option of making any Trek show after the ten year period. This is also part of the reason why Kurtzman was brought in. But I covered this in the Trek News and Rumours Thread)

    I enjoy The Orville far better than anything that has come out of Paramount and CBS with Trek since 2009. Its Star Trek just not a Star Trek show.
    I would take McFarlane over Kurtzman any day of the week. One show respect to the source material, with the other one. They have no interest in it and rather got throw out so he can do his own thing and make a quick buck in the process.
    Why do you think JJ had the Star Wars Extended Universe made none canon. It was so he could do his own thing with The Force Awakens, than do a research and tell a story set in the canon universe that the EU had.
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    Now that was a really nice finale. They even managed to show Picard how to do the exact same reveal but earn it.

    It's still a show that focuses mainly on refernce humor but all in all I really like it. The first Time since 20 Years that I'm actually looking forward to a new season of Trek :-D
  • SamuraiSamurai184 Posts: 408Member
    I got caught up this past week, and there's a lot to like about it as the characters continue to develop and open up new story possibilities. I especially appreciate it's willingness to not take itself too seriously (Holodeck cleanup, anyone?)

    Is it gonna win Emmy's and TV Choice awards? Probably not, let's be honest. Is there room for it among the unrelentingly joyless hellscape that is post-DS9 Star Trek? Absolutely- it's been far too long since Star Trek made me smile.
    P5ych0p4th
    "Perfect. Then that's the way it shall be."
  • darkthunderdarkthunder192 SwedenPosts: 59Member
    To quote one of the characters in the season finale... It's been a long time, getting from there to here ;)

    Wasn't too optimistic about the show before it aired, but I've been happily surprised by just how good the show actually is. Yes, it's got a bit of "potty mouth" on occasion, but who cares? It's the stories and characters we care about. One of whom was the MVP and The Boss of the episode. May Your Winds be on your back.

    I look forward to it's 2nd season (and hopefully beyond). Just wish they would have more episodes in a season.
    P5ych0p4th
  • count23count23261 Posts: 681Member
    I would love to have 10 more episodes of LD (A full 20 episode season) in exchange for Disco season 3. I am very annoyed at this "10 episodes per season" trend CBS/Paramount seem to have adopted. Trek used to be 26 episode seasons, hell, even TAS was 22 for it's first season. I dont get why 10 episodes has become the standard yet charge the same full price for the season as if it were a full length proper season order.
    P5ych0p4th
    Formerly Nadesico.

    Current Projects:
    Ambassador Class
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    count23 wrote: »
    I would love to have 10 more episodes of LD (A full 20 episode season) in exchange for Disco season 3. I am very annoyed at this "10 episodes per season" trend CBS/Paramount seem to have adopted. Trek used to be 26 episode seasons, hell, even TAS was 22 for it's first season. I dont get why 10 episodes has become the standard yet charge the same full price for the season as if it were a full length proper season order.

    Well with the higher producion quality of most shows it makes sense. It wouldn't be financially feasable, to have a 26 Episode Season of Discovery, since that would cost well over 200 Million Dollars.

    However with an animated show, that doesn't really fly ... so yeah ... more Lower Decks would be nice. Or you could ... you know ... go back to the way those 26 Episode Seasons were made. Meaning the odd Clipshow and Bottle Episode and some canned Flyby shots. If the Stories told work, there's really no reasin not to do it that way. Also its 26 Weeks people have to be subscribed for instead of just 10
  • sorceress21sorceress21263 Posts: 574Member
    Against my better judgment, I watched episode three. I have to say, it wasn't quite as bad as the first two, but the show still doesn't resonate with me. The main thing that this show does that doesn't really suit my particular taste in comedy is that it exaggerates every situation. The thing with task times and the giant red clocks was ridiculous, as was the over the top reaction of the aliens to the wood thing instead of a crystal. I mean, there have been insults on Star Trek before, there were a few episodes of Enterprise that dealt with Archer and his crew doing the wrong thing and aliens getting mad about it. But, they didn't all out attack and graffiti the ship over a simple mistake. So, I think that's what gets me most about this show, is they go way over the top with these scenarios to try and be funny. To me, it's just not funny. Though, I did something I haven't done before with this show. I laughed. Once. It was right at the beginning of the episode, when the security chief broke Boimler's violin.

    I'm with you on this one. I have no fundamental complaint with LD but me personally I don't really care for sci-fi comedy. While films like Spaceballs and Hitchhiker's Guide had a moment or two that made me slightly laugh I never really cared for either film or their brethren such as Galaxy Quest or The Orville. Probably the only scifi comedy I actually really liked was Ice Pirates, but in that movie the "comedy" was minimal against an actual serious storyline.

    I like the LOL moments from Trek throughout it's canon history but a Trek show that is a solid, even slapstick, comedy, isn't for me. I'm glad though some of you all are enjoying it.

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