ILM should bow b4 your superiority, IMO. They do have talent, its just carelessness. :flippy: @George Lucas::fishslap:
I don't think its carelessness ... Mikes R2 was build in months or maybe years ... the guys at ILM don't have that time ... they need to be done within days or weeks ... maybe they should have started with modeling in preproduction ... next time they will do in Episode 7
How long does it take to program the same model to weigh 200 lbs instead of 20 lbs? were not even talking about the accuracy of the textures, its (relativley) simple rag-doll physics. if for the jump scenes, they had obi wan weigh 20 lbs, it would have looked totally ridiculus!!!
I don't think its carelessness ... Mikes R2 was build in months or maybe years ... the guys at ILM don't have that time ... they need to be done within days or weeks ... maybe they should have started with modeling in preproduction ... next time they will do in Episode 7
^well now you've gone from talking about R2 in ep3 to R2 in ep1, in whatever CG scenes of it there was in ep1 it looked perfect, but just because the model was slightly badly animated in one scene from ep3 shouldn't be an excuse to knock it
I've read your post 3 times now; I'm having a difficult time deciphering what you're trying to say. But I'm going to try and answer you as best as I can...
Ep.1's R2 wasn't "perfect" by any stretch of the imagination, and Billy will tell you that himself, if you ask him; he and I have long since become friends... there's no question that at the time, his R2 was very impressive, and is what made me take on the project in the first place.
Ep.3's R2 had many problems with it, aside from the ridiculous dynamics. It had a great many texture issues, and other animation problems which made it read very CG. As I stated previously, it is certainly not an issue of ILM not having the talent to do the project right, nor lack of materials, nor lack of interest, nor not having enough time. The truth is, we will never know exactly why the final product was shy of its potential, but that's the reality. In any case, each subsequent effort - either by myself or another artist - just sets a new standard which can be topped, with enough effort, time, and resources. Mine is not the end-all-be-all of R2 renders. There is no such thing.
or christ sake guys...just enjoy the movies instead of shredding them appart like they are corpses..!!!!jeez..Mike's R2 look insanely good. but for those of you who don't know what they're talking abou..doing a R3 for print and one for film is 2 fucking different thing.so stop bitching about ILM or Lucas and watch trek if you thinnk SW blows so much!...then you'll have something to bitch about for the next 20 years
or christ sake guys...just enjoy the movies instead of shredding them appart like they are corpses..!!!!jeez..Mike's R2 look insanely good. but for those of you who don't know what they're talking abou..doing a R3 for print and one for film is 2 fucking different thing.so stop bitching about ILM or Lucas and watch trek if you thinnk SW blows so much!...then you'll have something to bitch about for the next 20 years
I've read your post 3 times now; I'm having a difficult time deciphering what you're trying to say. But I'm going to try and answer you as best as I can...
Ep.1's R2 wasn't "perfect" by any stretch of the imagination, and Billy will tell you that himself, if you ask him; he and I have long since become friends... there's no question that at the time, his R2 was very impressive, and is what made me take on the project in the first place.
Ep.3's R2 had many problems with it, aside from the ridiculous dynamics. It had a great many texture issues, and other animation problems which made it read very CG. As I stated previously, it is certainly not an issue of ILM not having the talent to do the project right, nor lack of materials, nor lack of interest, nor not having enough time. The truth is, we will never know exactly why the final product was shy of its potential, but that's the reality. In any case, each subsequent effort - either by myself or another artist - just sets a new standard which can be topped, with enough effort, time, and resources. Mine is not the end-all-be-all of R2 renders. There is no such thing.
_Mike
what I'm trying to say is everyone started dissing R2 in episode 3 because of 'crappy dynamics', and you say this guy had 19 weeks to build it in episode 1, which was like 6 years earlier, whatever CG there was of R2 in episode 1 was as near to perfect as you can probably get, even a trained CG eye would have a very hard time spotting it, so basically all this nitpicking is just stupid
or christ sake guys...just enjoy the movies instead of shredding them appart like they are corpses..!!!!jeez..Mike's R2 look insanely good. but for those of you who don't know what they're talking abou..doing a R3 for print and one for film is 2 fucking different thing.so stop bitching about ILM or Lucas and watch trek if you thinnk SW blows so much!...then you'll have something to bitch about for the next 20 years
how rude
can't remember I was bitching ... but ...
with that budget ILM or Lucas has they really should do better (no rant!)
but back to topic:
Mike: I'm really looking forward to your little tutorial how you made the Textures-Setup in Maxwell for R2.
Lots of mis-information being thrown around here, guys...
The budgets for the SW prequels aren't miracles of frugality. ILM gets most of their hardware for free, and artists and companies will bend over backwards (i.e. whore themselves out) to be a part of Star Wars, to say nothing of the fact that it is far easier to manage budgets when everything is in house. And to address Alain's comment directly, there was no workflow difference between my "print R2" and if I'd done the job for film. Except I would've needed to rig it - just a couple of days. I'm not a "print" guy, and I had far less time to create this R2 than I would have had if it was for film.
Additionally, IF you have a problem with the prequels, it isn't because they didn't have resources - financial, creative, or schedule-wise to do a better job. Somehow, to me, even suggesting this sounds like you're apologizing for the films.
Obviously, based on the way some of you guys are weighing in, there's some sort of raw nerve about this on this forum. Do me a favor, and take it somewhere else.
Now, as for "nitpicking." I don't consider every negative opinion of something "nitpicking." I don't like child molesters. That's not nitpicking, it's on opinion. I didn't like the R2 in Ep.3. That's not nitpicking, it's an opinion; an opinion I could specify with a laundry list of major reasons, not just because of "little things."
Further, IRML, you may not be able to tell the difference between Ep.1's CG R2 and a real one, but I sure as hell can. But I'll tell Billy you said that.
To be honest, jumping in on a thread and starting to scream and insult people is really amateur night; take a few breaths, and don't post angry.
Anybody ever tell you Mike you look like George Clooney a bit... grey your hair out and you got it. Just an observation, not a compliment. I'm not hitting on you. :eek: Yikes.. that was close. Not that there's anything wrong with being gay. Ain't my sorta bag baby.
As far as CGI goes... I don't see how people would notice little stuff like textures on a small on-screen model, that is moving, with motion-blur, dust, etc. Only high-tech folks like you Mike would even notice. You can get away with so much in a film. And anything close-up like your test renders.. in a film they would use a physical model for more likely.
The animation... YIKES. I haven't really heard people talk about it before but yea... those R2 shots in EP3 are really animated in a very unrealistic manner. I accepted the Yoda fights from EP2 and EP3. I couldn't see any other way how they could be done. BUT... these really are movies for kids. So George might have been thinking it was funnier that way?? I could see kids enjoying those things animated that way better.
If you could find out anything ask about these decisions, and why they were made that way. That would be very interesting. I always check out all the behind-the-scenes stuff, commentaries, etc. I thought it was funny how Steve "Spaz" Williams and a cohort got kicked out of ILM for sneaking around in George's office. Then they formed their own studio called "Banned from the Ranch" and did not so great work on SPAWN.
Opinions. I think people in the "western" part of the world are too caught up into their "RIGHTS". They worry about what they have a right to do all the time and not whether it is right. There's always a higher truth. You'll never get there because nothing is perfect. But we should STRIVE for this state of perfection. And that means letting go of one's ego, being open, learning to adapt. Don't get stuck on yourself. Nothing wrong with saying I didn't like EP2 R2-D2... but say way. Debate your opinion with yourself and absorb others opinions. Don't be an ass and get stuck on your way of thinking. HONESTLY... you should be constantly evolving your opinions and attitudes. Forever taking in information.
That's what I see when I read stuff like this. I see people with all sorts of unwavering, cynical bad attitudes. There's really nothing to argue about. We should be seeking more information. Obviously there were decisions made about the way R2 looked and performed. It would be interesting to know why. And maybe it was as simple as not putting enough effort and there were plenty of resources. There are some things I like and don't like about every movie. People take normal stuff like that and run with it when what they really have is an irrational attitude. Some people for no logical reason just want to hate on Star Wars. Maybe they feel it gets more attention than Star Trek and they don't think it deserves it. You'll never get anywhere and get past stuff like this if you're not honest with yourself. Only then can you figure out who you really are and actually grow.
Dr.Zoo steps off podium.
"Take two Xanax and call me in the morning".
Amen, Zoo. Though I will say that it is not just the details which make or break things, but basic issues of physics and light propogation which cause "laypeople" to spot CG things from a mile away. Working on the details helps, but you have to get the big things right, too.
Now, a screenshot:
If this doesn't read CG to you, I don't know what to tell you. A large part of what's happening/not happening here is that the aluminum shader isn't performing accurately (the ior is extremely narrow-band, and the anisotropy isn't happening much, either), and the blue paint shader isn't performing the multi-layered, narrow-angle Fresnel stuff, which makes or breaks that material. We "know" R2's look, including his paint, and this is just not quite it. The overall lighting stuff is fine, but there's quite a bit "flat" in the image as a result of not getting some of the bigger things right. I think this is a good shot to analyze, because it is both dark (hides things) and is a challenging environment (reveals things).
One thing I feel strongly, though... is that in general, the Ep.1 effects were the best of the 3.
Amen, Zoo. Though I will say that it is not just the details which make or break things, but basic issues of physics and light propogation which cause "laypeople" to spot CG things from a mile away. Working on the details helps, but you have to get the big things right, too.
Now, a screenshot:
If this doesn't read CG to you, I don't know what to tell you. A large part of what's happening/not happening here is that the aluminum shader isn't performing accurately (the ior is extremely narrow-band, and the anisotropy isn't happening much, either), and the blue paint shader isn't performing the multi-layered, narrow-angle Fresnel stuff, which makes or breaks that material. We "know" R2's look, including his paint, and this is just not quite it. The overall lighting stuff is fine, but there's quite a bit "flat" in the image as a result of not getting some of the bigger things right. I think this is a good shot to analyze, because it is both dark (hides things) and is a challenging environment (reveals things).
One thing I feel strongly, though... is that in general, the Ep.1 effects were the best of the 3.
_Mike
I agree with you that the effects in ep1 were the best of the 3, but I'm not seeing what's wrong with the image, space is dark so for me that explains why it's not reflecting much
The reflection amount isn't the issue; it's the nature of the reflection not being accurate, for the reasons I stated (which is a fact, not an opinion); along with the other issues. The engine used to render these images does not reproduce the full spectrum of ior properties. It's not even a spectral renderer.
In truth, I can't tell you to see this image as CG. You either do, or you don't. But the truth is that if you took a real R2 and photographed it under these conditions, it would look different - vastly different;differences very easy to spot. Absent this comparison, you may be convinced. And if so, that's great. I can't NOT see the obvious missing/unrealistic things, so my eye reads it for what it is, which is CG. And again, I could make a laundry list of things which are not photorealistically accurate about it, but that might not change a thing about your perception, which is obviously relative.
That shot makes you wonder how they can get all the green reflection out of him and composite him in the first place...
I found this a very good point...hadnt thought about it before simply because its a major studio doing the cgi but...how do they greenscreen with so much spill in this shiny little fellow?
Posts
I don't think its carelessness ... Mikes R2 was build in months or maybe years ... the guys at ILM don't have that time ... they need to be done within days or weeks ... maybe they should have started with modeling in preproduction
Greets
Chris
How long does it take to program the same model to weigh 200 lbs instead of 20 lbs? were not even talking about the accuracy of the textures, its (relativley) simple rag-doll physics. if for the jump scenes, they had obi wan weigh 20 lbs, it would have looked totally ridiculus!!!
This R2 was remodeled and textured from scratch in about 6 weeks. Billy Brooks had 19 weeks for R2 in Ep.1. In this instance, time is not an excuse.
_Mike
IRML -
I've read your post 3 times now; I'm having a difficult time deciphering what you're trying to say. But I'm going to try and answer you as best as I can...
Ep.1's R2 wasn't "perfect" by any stretch of the imagination, and Billy will tell you that himself, if you ask him; he and I have long since become friends... there's no question that at the time, his R2 was very impressive, and is what made me take on the project in the first place.
Ep.3's R2 had many problems with it, aside from the ridiculous dynamics. It had a great many texture issues, and other animation problems which made it read very CG. As I stated previously, it is certainly not an issue of ILM not having the talent to do the project right, nor lack of materials, nor lack of interest, nor not having enough time. The truth is, we will never know exactly why the final product was shy of its potential, but that's the reality. In any case, each subsequent effort - either by myself or another artist - just sets a new standard which can be topped, with enough effort, time, and resources. Mine is not the end-all-be-all of R2 renders. There is no such thing.
_Mike
heh ... never knew that
Greets
Chris
agreed, only not so angerly:thumb:
how rude
can't remember I was bitching
with that budget ILM or Lucas has they really should do better
but back to topic:
Mike: I'm really looking forward to your little tutorial how you made the Textures-Setup in Maxwell for R2.
Greets
Chris
dude..all SW sequels were done for less then haft the budjet of any sci-fi or fantasy movies!...
:cool:
The budgets for the SW prequels aren't miracles of frugality. ILM gets most of their hardware for free, and artists and companies will bend over backwards (i.e. whore themselves out) to be a part of Star Wars, to say nothing of the fact that it is far easier to manage budgets when everything is in house. And to address Alain's comment directly, there was no workflow difference between my "print R2" and if I'd done the job for film. Except I would've needed to rig it - just a couple of days. I'm not a "print" guy, and I had far less time to create this R2 than I would have had if it was for film.
Additionally, IF you have a problem with the prequels, it isn't because they didn't have resources - financial, creative, or schedule-wise to do a better job. Somehow, to me, even suggesting this sounds like you're apologizing for the films.
Obviously, based on the way some of you guys are weighing in, there's some sort of raw nerve about this on this forum. Do me a favor, and take it somewhere else.
Now, as for "nitpicking." I don't consider every negative opinion of something "nitpicking." I don't like child molesters. That's not nitpicking, it's on opinion. I didn't like the R2 in Ep.3. That's not nitpicking, it's an opinion; an opinion I could specify with a laundry list of major reasons, not just because of "little things."
Further, IRML, you may not be able to tell the difference between Ep.1's CG R2 and a real one, but I sure as hell can. But I'll tell Billy you said that.
To be honest, jumping in on a thread and starting to scream and insult people is really amateur night; take a few breaths, and don't post angry.
_Mike
_Mike
As far as CGI goes... I don't see how people would notice little stuff like textures on a small on-screen model, that is moving, with motion-blur, dust, etc. Only high-tech folks like you Mike would even notice. You can get away with so much in a film. And anything close-up like your test renders.. in a film they would use a physical model for more likely.
The animation... YIKES. I haven't really heard people talk about it before but yea... those R2 shots in EP3 are really animated in a very unrealistic manner. I accepted the Yoda fights from EP2 and EP3. I couldn't see any other way how they could be done. BUT... these really are movies for kids. So George might have been thinking it was funnier that way?? I could see kids enjoying those things animated that way better.
If you could find out anything ask about these decisions, and why they were made that way. That would be very interesting. I always check out all the behind-the-scenes stuff, commentaries, etc. I thought it was funny how Steve "Spaz" Williams and a cohort got kicked out of ILM for sneaking around in George's office. Then they formed their own studio called "Banned from the Ranch" and did not so great work on SPAWN.
Opinions. I think people in the "western" part of the world are too caught up into their "RIGHTS". They worry about what they have a right to do all the time and not whether it is right. There's always a higher truth. You'll never get there because nothing is perfect. But we should STRIVE for this state of perfection. And that means letting go of one's ego, being open, learning to adapt. Don't get stuck on yourself. Nothing wrong with saying I didn't like EP2 R2-D2... but say way. Debate your opinion with yourself and absorb others opinions. Don't be an ass and get stuck on your way of thinking. HONESTLY... you should be constantly evolving your opinions and attitudes. Forever taking in information.
That's what I see when I read stuff like this. I see people with all sorts of unwavering, cynical bad attitudes. There's really nothing to argue about. We should be seeking more information. Obviously there were decisions made about the way R2 looked and performed. It would be interesting to know why. And maybe it was as simple as not putting enough effort and there were plenty of resources. There are some things I like and don't like about every movie. People take normal stuff like that and run with it when what they really have is an irrational attitude. Some people for no logical reason just want to hate on Star Wars. Maybe they feel it gets more attention than Star Trek and they don't think it deserves it. You'll never get anywhere and get past stuff like this if you're not honest with yourself. Only then can you figure out who you really are and actually grow.
Dr.Zoo steps off podium.
"Take two Xanax and call me in the morning".
Now, a screenshot:
If this doesn't read CG to you, I don't know what to tell you. A large part of what's happening/not happening here is that the aluminum shader isn't performing accurately (the ior is extremely narrow-band, and the anisotropy isn't happening much, either), and the blue paint shader isn't performing the multi-layered, narrow-angle Fresnel stuff, which makes or breaks that material. We "know" R2's look, including his paint, and this is just not quite it. The overall lighting stuff is fine, but there's quite a bit "flat" in the image as a result of not getting some of the bigger things right. I think this is a good shot to analyze, because it is both dark (hides things) and is a challenging environment (reveals things).
One thing I feel strongly, though... is that in general, the Ep.1 effects were the best of the 3.
_Mike
agree :thumb:
Greets
Chris
In truth, I can't tell you to see this image as CG. You either do, or you don't. But the truth is that if you took a real R2 and photographed it under these conditions, it would look different - vastly different;differences very easy to spot. Absent this comparison, you may be convinced. And if so, that's great. I can't NOT see the obvious missing/unrealistic things, so my eye reads it for what it is, which is CG. And again, I could make a laundry list of things which are not photorealistically accurate about it, but that might not change a thing about your perception, which is obviously relative.
_Mike
This is a shot of R2 in front of an amazing cityscape, with flying vehicles of all kinds, and a fierce ion storm raging in the atmosphere. No, really.
_Mike
yes ... I can imagine
Greets
Chris
The only thing thats killing you is the inaccuracy.
P.s This model is like 1 and a half years old, from when I was just starting. So I might be able to do better now.
I found this a very good point...hadnt thought about it before simply because its a major studio doing the cgi but...how do they greenscreen with so much spill in this shiny little fellow?
_Mike