New impulse tail. I based it on advice from McC and changed the impulse venturi pretty much like he suggested. After looking at the end of the tail I decided to leave it as was because the play between the concave impulse venturi and the convex tail gave it some unusual geometry that looked more complex that it actually was. It also kept it from looking too much like a simple extrude from the saucer.
Speaking of extruding, I did it at first, then had to fight the effects of it distorting the hull till, -DUH!- I finally simply copied the part of the saucer I was going to extrude from, separated the verts and made the impulse tail as a separate piece.
The middle tail also serves as the docking assembly between the two hulls.
Very interesting! You're right about that interplay between convex and concave; quite fetching!
A couple of thoughts. First, it looks awfully long now. That may be a non-issue, depending on how you decide to detail those flat dorsal surfaces, but at the moment it seems disproportionately long compared to the rest of the ship. Second, I'd really like to see how this looks from the side.
Yeah, you're right. I do need some space between the rear of the tail and the nacelle as I intend to put a recessed hatch there to serve as the primary warp core emergency eject hatch. I wasn't too sure about it shooting straight up with the nacelle there but if I leave enough space and assume the ejector would have some sort of aiming system to keep the core from hitting the nacelle..
Also think I'll make the crease in the top less severe, a little more rounded. The bottom needs to be sharp as it's where two masses dock together, but the top could be a bit rounded, might even bevel the top a bit.
I think I'll pull in the center a bit just to give a little more clearance between it and the nacelle to facilitate primary warp core ejection, but not all that much as there seems to be just about enough space for that as is.
Now I might shorten the sides as the impulse engines don't need to be that long even for high powered versions working in the atmosphere. Still, if I do that then the buttress section has to have it's rear pulled forward.
I may shorten the impulse sections more to emphasize the fact that they're sort of separate from the center with is more of a docking section.
From an engineering POV I was thinking the main power plant, the amtimatter reactor/warp core, will likely be in the rear hull's center of mass. I was thinking that putting the pylon mounts near there would minimize the mount of heay conduit you'd need to reach the engines with the main power output. I know most trek ships don't do that, it was just how I was engineering things.
As to the engines themselves, I made them big because I liked the original and movie version enterprises better than the later ones in most ways. Admittedly the original enterprise had very small pylons. I never liked the little bity engines that a lot of TNG vessels used, especially voyager.
As I was seeing it, the engines are overbuilt by TNG standards to have a lot of redundancy in them, enabling them to function even after sustaining considerable damage.
I've had an idea here to take this in a new direction and replace the saucer with something that looks lore like a completely seperate atmo-capable craft, maybe something very loosely inspired by the old romulan warbird.
The more I think on it the more making the upper section into what looks more like a fully functional atmo-craft might work better than keeping the saucer design.
Any opinions on this? I'd hate to lose the saucer after so much work but maybe a more independent looking vessel idea could look better.
I also had the idea of going really over the top and doing the landing section to look like a stylized version of thor's hammer as a reff to Hephaestus.
Ok, didn't take long to drop the hammer idea. I did start on the concept of making the 'saucer' more of a fully atmo capable craft, not just something that was meant to get the survivors of the ship to the surface of a planet once and crash. (A'la enterprise D in generations) but something that could enter atmosphere, land, take off, etc.
I was looking at some ideas, like the metaluna saucer in this island earth, the defiant, a romulan TOS warbird, etc.
I ended up with this idea, not finished, haven't done the underside or detailed it yet. I want it to look more like something that's 'saucer' is not just an emergency lifeboat. Originally I had the back side come back at an angle, but I got the idea to bevel it a little just to see how it looked.
Pretty happy with the new top, even if it means a lot of work detailing it. I like the way the new primary hull sort of flows into the old command section on top now, should have done this long ago.
Closeup of the command section. Yes the armor panels on the rest of the upper section don't line up with it, that's because the command module and the rest oif the ship are essentially separate sections linked together.993_zps54c1af96.png
I'm not crazy about the layout of the longitudinal panel lines on the command section. They're not radiating from "comfortable" angles. The front-most pair seem like they should be closer to the centerline, while the "middle" pair seem like they should be parallel to the horizontal axis rather than swept back the way they are now.
If I'm not mistaken, it also looks like you're putting these in while still in subsurf. That's fine, but be careful about the panels "buckling" as a result, which it looks like they might be doing. If you look at the tutorial about putting gridlines in post-subsurf, you'll see a bunch of stuff about cutting in panel lines in such a way as to keep the normals flat. When you do it in the subsurf, (I think) it's a lot harder to ensure this happens, so you run the risk of adjacent panels looking like they have very different normals (because they do) rather than shading evenly with only the panel line disrupting them.
Also, very sorry for not responding to your PMs! I did get them, I just haven't been able to reply because the forums have been experiencing so much trouble!
Oh, no, I've definitely learned a lesson about paneling with subsurf, and apply it before paneling.
As to the rest, I just wanted to suggest the upper lander is heavily armored to resist fire from above which it might be subjected to. I know some of the rear panels are complex, but I didn't want them to be too large.
The panels don't line up with the commend module, that's a actually separate and can detach if need by should the lander be disabled and unable to lift off.
After days of trying and experimenting with various looks I finally have the sensor arrays on the upper lander. I like the look of the different shapes and such.
Also these are applied over the armor, not recessedf into it. More vulnerable, even with an armored rim, but doesn't compromise the armor.
Added the lander phaser arrays. Yes she's heavily armed for a disaster relief ship, she's also meant to provide front line support in both logistical and combat terms.
can't seem to add pic due to database error, let's try a link instead.
Incidentially I use a trick called 'double subsurfing" on the phasers and the sensor panels. I apply the subsurf to the main hull, then select the areas I want to ass phaser or sensor panels to. I duplicate and separate them, then add a new subsurf mod to make the smooth panels that are a perfect match to the hull contours.
just redid the array, muted the colors and kind of cleaned it up a little.
Couple of suggestions not at all related to modeling.
1. When you're done rendering, rather than screengrabbing it, save out a rendered image. Ninja Edit: It looks like you're just going into Rendered mode in the Viewport right now. Instead, set yourself up a camera (or a bunch of cameras; my Ambassador file has something like 40 cameras in it at this point, one for each different view I've ever rendered) and use Render > Render Image. Once that completes, you can then save it out with Image > Save As Image. Various settings related to this render can be found in the Render sub-panel in the Properties Editor panel.
2. When doing a render, kick out of Orthographic view (5 on the numpad) and into Perspective view for a more natural-looking shot. This will happen automatically if you're using a camera (see above).
Is there a way to make the current view in a window the camera view? I mean, setting up a view in a window is easy, but to get the camera to a view is a bitch.
Here is a rendered view, I used a command that was supposed to move the csamerra to the window view. It was the same view as the last pic but here's all I got when I used the ctr alt numpad0 command.
This is why I often don't use the camera view, it's basically impossible to get the view you want unlike the window mode.
Ok I managed to cajole the campera into a better view and upper the settings to 350 samples instead of 200 and maxed out the AA. I wish it made it look better in the final render but it doesn't seem to.
Easy trick to moving the camera around is to move and rotate it with a combination of global and local axes (g, x, x for example will move along the object's local X axis rather than the global X axis) while looking through it. You can't use the usual viewport manipulation hotkeys/mouse moves, but it behaves like any other object when selected. With just the global transform commands, this isn't particularly useful, but using a combination of global and local, it becomes really easy to position it exactly where you want.
Apparently when I render an image with the camera instead of screencapping a rendered mode image it's too large for this board to post as a n image, so I have to give a link instead.
So I noticed that my very count was over a million. After searching for duplicated parts, places where the subsurf had gotten rolled up to like 5 or more, etc, I finally found the problem.
The engines. The only original part to remain.
Admittedly I made them when I didn't know quite WTFF I was doing, (Still don't really.) and admittedly they were a little too angular and sharp edged, bit I didn't want to redo them as I'd put a lot of work on them.
Unfortunately I'd subsurfed them like a couple times and them had another subsurf mod and the total verts for each engine was like 150,000, meaning all 3 of them totaled nearly half a million verts. Really the engines were fairly low detail shapes yet they were running up way more verts than whole hull sections.
So I had to rebuild the engines. I orginally tried a slightly modified version like this.
I ran into some real problems tho and decided I didn't dislike the original engines, they just needed to be rebuilt with some of the skills I've picked up since I designed them.
So here's the current view, in some ways less detailed with a smaller number of larger engine 'windows" but with beveled edges, rounded corners, etc. I'm going to detail them up a bit. Feedback is welcome.
BTW, is there a good copper material for cycles yet? I might want to make part of the engines in copper since the enterprise d had some copper parts and so did the original connie.
In a respectful tribute to (or shameless ripoff of) McC's idea to make parts of his nacelles transparent and show the warp coils inside them I am doing the same thing. (In all fairness to me I has the idea of making the engine bussard collector front transparent to show the hydrogen collector machinery behind it a while ago.)
Here's the first view of the clear glowing windows.
Here's the back of the nacelle. I dropped the swept back look and am detailing it a little. It reminds me of something jack kirby might have designed in a way.
I like the new windowed approach. I also like the detailing you've got going on in the back. I have to admit, I prefer the bulgy/rounded version of the nacelle design that you scrapped to the hard-angular one. The rest of the ship has so many smooth curves that having the hard, angular nacelles feels very out of place.
Posts
Speaking of extruding, I did it at first, then had to fight the effects of it distorting the hull till, -DUH!- I finally simply copied the part of the saucer I was going to extrude from, separated the verts and made the impulse tail as a separate piece.
The middle tail also serves as the docking assembly between the two hulls.
I Hope it looks as good as I think it does.
imp_zpsa502bd5b.png
A couple of thoughts. First, it looks awfully long now. That may be a non-issue, depending on how you decide to detail those flat dorsal surfaces, but at the moment it seems disproportionately long compared to the rest of the ship. Second, I'd really like to see how this looks from the side.
Keeeeeep going! :thumb:
Books: [ Ashes of Alour-Tan | Embers of Alour-Tan ] | Blender Tutorials | Blog
Also think I'll make the crease in the top less severe, a little more rounded. The bottom needs to be sharp as it's where two masses dock together, but the top could be a bit rounded, might even bevel the top a bit.
top_zps2f10b1ad.png
I think I'll pull in the center a bit just to give a little more clearance between it and the nacelle to facilitate primary warp core ejection, but not all that much as there seems to be just about enough space for that as is.
Now I might shorten the sides as the impulse engines don't need to be that long even for high powered versions working in the atmosphere. Still, if I do that then the buttress section has to have it's rear pulled forward.
I may shorten the impulse sections more to emphasize the fact that they're sort of separate from the center with is more of a docking section.
Just some thoughts that popped into my head while looking at it. Feel free to tell me I'm a fool if they're terrible ideas.
Books: [ Ashes of Alour-Tan | Embers of Alour-Tan ] | Blender Tutorials | Blog
I was able to do this in inkscape to show what I'm working on and how I'm thinking.
bitmap_zps2f61e044.png
From an engineering POV I was thinking the main power plant, the amtimatter reactor/warp core, will likely be in the rear hull's center of mass. I was thinking that putting the pylon mounts near there would minimize the mount of heay conduit you'd need to reach the engines with the main power output. I know most trek ships don't do that, it was just how I was engineering things.
As to the engines themselves, I made them big because I liked the original and movie version enterprises better than the later ones in most ways. Admittedly the original enterprise had very small pylons. I never liked the little bity engines that a lot of TNG vessels used, especially voyager.
As I was seeing it, the engines are overbuilt by TNG standards to have a lot of redundancy in them, enabling them to function even after sustaining considerable damage.
image2_zpsee6f15bc.png
The more I think on it the more making the upper section into what looks more like a fully functional atmo-craft might work better than keeping the saucer design.
Any opinions on this? I'd hate to lose the saucer after so much work but maybe a more independent looking vessel idea could look better.
I was looking at some ideas, like the metaluna saucer in this island earth, the defiant, a romulan TOS warbird, etc.
I ended up with this idea, not finished, haven't done the underside or detailed it yet. I want it to look more like something that's 'saucer' is not just an emergency lifeboat. Originally I had the back side come back at an angle, but I got the idea to bevel it a little just to see how it looked.
image29_zps5d604d6a.png
Foreview.
ima3_zps6a7e9dee.png
image315_zpsdeca1171.png
this pic seems to be one of the best angles to view her from, it just all seems to work at this angle. This pic is what really told me I had it right.
newtop1_zpsd48c753b.png
image3004_zpsb504bb16.png
imae3_zps76629345.png
Pretty happy with the new top, even if it means a lot of work detailing it. I like the way the new primary hull sort of flows into the old command section on top now, should have done this long ago.
imga3_zps81f6e0bb.png
imag_zpsbc02ebc6.png
2993_zpsaca471d6.png
I'm not crazy about the layout of the longitudinal panel lines on the command section. They're not radiating from "comfortable" angles. The front-most pair seem like they should be closer to the centerline, while the "middle" pair seem like they should be parallel to the horizontal axis rather than swept back the way they are now.
If I'm not mistaken, it also looks like you're putting these in while still in subsurf. That's fine, but be careful about the panels "buckling" as a result, which it looks like they might be doing. If you look at the tutorial about putting gridlines in post-subsurf, you'll see a bunch of stuff about cutting in panel lines in such a way as to keep the normals flat. When you do it in the subsurf, (I think) it's a lot harder to ensure this happens, so you run the risk of adjacent panels looking like they have very different normals (because they do) rather than shading evenly with only the panel line disrupting them.
Also, very sorry for not responding to your PMs! I did get them, I just haven't been able to reply because the forums have been experiencing so much trouble!
Books: [ Ashes of Alour-Tan | Embers of Alour-Tan ] | Blender Tutorials | Blog
As to the rest, I just wanted to suggest the upper lander is heavily armored to resist fire from above which it might be subjected to. I know some of the rear panels are complex, but I didn't want them to be too large.
The panels don't line up with the commend module, that's a actually separate and can detach if need by should the lander be disabled and unable to lift off.
Also these are applied over the armor, not recessedf into it. More vulnerable, even with an armored rim, but doesn't compromise the armor.
image299_zps2e13cba8.png
The glowing rim on the shuttlebay is a mistake caused by slipping up with the materials and putting it there by mistake.
Next steps, phasers on the lander, some details on the comm array..
can't seem to add pic due to database error, let's try a link instead.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/tanhauser/age2993_zpsdd466d3d.png
I may add some detail to the phasers later like McC showed me. I know I now hace to redo the rear hull phasers.
just redid the array, muted the colors and kind of cleaned it up a little.
HHH_zpsf824f338.png
1. When you're done rendering, rather than screengrabbing it, save out a rendered image.
2. When doing a render, kick out of Orthographic view (5 on the numpad) and into Perspective view for a more natural-looking shot. This will happen automatically if you're using a camera (see above).
Books: [ Ashes of Alour-Tan | Embers of Alour-Tan ] | Blender Tutorials | Blog
untitled_zps4e3e79b9.png
This is why I often don't use the camera view, it's basically impossible to get the view you want unlike the window mode.
Ok I managed to cajole the campera into a better view and upper the settings to 350 samples instead of 200 and maxed out the AA. I wish it made it look better in the final render but it doesn't seem to.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/tanhauser/itled_zpsf99dd03b.png
Books: [ Ashes of Alour-Tan | Embers of Alour-Tan ] | Blender Tutorials | Blog
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/tanhauser/SSA_zps0c6567bb.png
Apparently when I render an image with the camera instead of screencapping a rendered mode image it's too large for this board to post as a n image, so I have to give a link instead.
The engines. The only original part to remain.
Admittedly I made them when I didn't know quite WTFF I was doing, (Still don't really.) and admittedly they were a little too angular and sharp edged, bit I didn't want to redo them as I'd put a lot of work on them.
Unfortunately I'd subsurfed them like a couple times and them had another subsurf mod and the total verts for each engine was like 150,000, meaning all 3 of them totaled nearly half a million verts. Really the engines were fairly low detail shapes yet they were running up way more verts than whole hull sections.
So I had to rebuild the engines. I orginally tried a slightly modified version like this.
ne1_zps80e95521.png
I ran into some real problems tho and decided I didn't dislike the original engines, they just needed to be rebuilt with some of the skills I've picked up since I designed them.
So here's the current view, in some ways less detailed with a smaller number of larger engine 'windows" but with beveled edges, rounded corners, etc. I'm going to detail them up a bit. Feedback is welcome.
ne2_zpsef854fce.png
BTW, is there a good copper material for cycles yet? I might want to make part of the engines in copper since the enterprise d had some copper parts and so did the original connie.
Here's the first view of the clear glowing windows.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/tanhauser/NE3_zps7be0fc64.png
Here's the back of the nacelle. I dropped the swept back look and am detailing it a little. It reminds me of something jack kirby might have designed in a way.
http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d25/tanhauser/ne4_zps829d6ec7.png
I like the new windowed approach. I also like the detailing you've got going on in the back. I have to admit, I prefer the bulgy/rounded version of the nacelle design that you scrapped to the hard-angular one. The rest of the ship has so many smooth curves that having the hard, angular nacelles feels very out of place.
Books: [ Ashes of Alour-Tan | Embers of Alour-Tan ] | Blender Tutorials | Blog
I wonder if an oval one would work....