I'm sorry, I still don't understand the problem with this premise.
One reason behind it, could be the mass of the ship, but then again, the Enterprise in JJ's movies was built on the ground... which Into Darkness may explain how they got the thing into space...
As for simply being under water, not raising out of the water, even in Voyager's episode "Demon" when they begin to submerge in that biomimetic fluid, they say if they don't get out, it will begin to corrode the hull...
The amount of stress on the nacelles and the saucer lifting out of the water and at the speed they did it... seems like the force would just snap the saucer from the neck like a toothpick... as well as the nacelles from the pylons...
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I'm not familiar with that episode of Voyager, but are you sure the word was 'corrode'? I ask because that's an entirely different problem presented to a ship that is 70+ years away from a starbase.
As for the nacelles etc, why wouldn't they be as vulnerable to a slight impulse turn?
I'm not familiar with that episode of Voyager, but are you sure the word was 'corrode'? I ask because that's an entirely different problem presented to a ship that is 70+ years away from a starbase.
As for the nacelles etc, why wouldn't they be as vulnerable to a slight impulse turn?
Yes, that's the word used.
Well, space (no air resistance) vs water... ever tried moving your hand in water at the same speed you try to move it in the open air?
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I know there's a lot more stress on my elbow when I turn my arm from having the weight of my hand attached to the end of it than I do from wind resistance.
So raising from the water would destroy a ship, but noone has a problem with them being a mile away from a black hole?
Or going from a standing start to high warp.
Honestly, do you think anyone would go in a starship half way across the galaxy if the designers said to them, "by the way, stay away from planets that generate 1G of pull, or those nacelles will snap right off"
So raising from the water would destroy a ship, but noone has a problem with them being a mile away from a black hole?
Or going from a standing start to high warp.
Honestly, do you think anyone would go in a starship half way across the galaxy if the designers said to them, "by the way, stay away from planets that generate 1G of pull, or those nacelles will snap right off"
Well, I do know people that made a point about the black hole bit from the first movie... mainly most of my friends who are deeply into astrophysics.
To my knowledge, in Star Trek, the ship itself isn't actually moving through space... space is moving around the ship... it's protected by being inside the warp bubble...
I'm by no means a physicist, so I can't elaborate in detail as someone like Lawrence Krauss or Neil deGrasse Tyson could... I'm sure the hull could handle 1G... 1G is the gravitational force we all normally feel.
However, the amount of force being exerted on some parts of the hull as it pushed up out of the water would've been extraordinary due to the weight of the water... but going back to the size of the JJ Enterprise... some say it's the same size as the TOS Enterprise, but sets seem to indicate it's a heck of a lot bigger than even the Enterprise E... that the dive they took at the beginning to reach the secondary hull's docking port would've killed them due to the water pressure at the depths they would've had to swim down to...
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According to ILM and the bluray, the enterprise is 725 meters long, a look at her from the side, and with a little maths applied you can tell she is 158 meters from its tallest point to its bottom, give a very generous 42 meters under the water to makes ure noone sees it from above, and it is still well over a hundred meters above the world record scuba dive.
And that would be if they were swimming to the bottom, not half way up it.
Well, I'm sure they also have proper equipment too... it seems like they just jump off the cliff into the water with no oxygen tanks, etc. Heck, the impact alone could've killed them if they didn't hit the water right, not saying it would, but it could.
According to ILM and the bluray, the enterprise is 725 meters long, a look at her from the side, and with a little maths applied you can tell she is 158 meters from its tallest point to its bottom, give a very generous 42 meters under the water to makes ure noone sees it from above, and it is still well over a hundred meters above the world record scuba dive.
And that would be if they were swimming to the bottom, not half way up it.
As much as I would love to make metric the standard measurement system in the US, it still throws me...
725 meters long is 2,378.61 feet long. 158 meters is 518.373 feet...
The Enterprise E is 685.7 meters or 2249.6719 feet long... according to the info on Wikipedia... it's 75 meters or 246.063 feet in height...
They swam all the way down to the port down on the secondary hull... not to the port on the neck...
Which must be a port only on the other side of the ship, because where they enter on the other side is not present on this side of the ship... the port on this side is farther back than where they enter in Into Darkness...
Picture from Ex Astris Scientia.
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My criticisms aren't so much hating on the movie, as I actually like the movie, not as much as I like some other Trek movies... but I outright love the movie Twister, but it still has it's problems.
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I have no problem people calling bull**** on something that clearly is, I myself wasnt keen on them still having cars with wheels, but then it has already been established that some people in the 23rd centuary collect classic cars, so they are not breaking with something already established.
And I know sometimes one scene can take you right out of a movie, the fall down the stairwell in the first Bourne being a prime example for me, or the mile long skid over concrete on the last one, both with seeminly no ill effects.
Well as far as black holes go, Roy Kerr said that if it was a spinning rim black hole and not a point singularity, and if a person passes right through the center, they could theoretically end up in another universe, and this is disbarring the possibility of that person having an ample power source (negative energy and mass) to force and keep open the "throat" of the passage way open.
Thus that black hole bit from the first was still a bit, but using the warp core to basically seal a rip in space/time was actually an ample and logical solution.
Side note: Black holes can also be called wormholes, but not vice versa, if I recall correctly lol
(most of this is taken from MY interpretation after reading Kaku's Physics of the Impossible; great read btw if you already havent.)
On topic: Them doing deep sea diving didnt garner much of an eye roll from me. Its the 23rd century, I expect them to have skintight suits made of materials that could withstand extreme underwater pressures, yet still provide ample mobility. This is actually no different than some of the stuff made today, or the skinsuit being developed for space. Also the bit with the rebreathers makes sense. We are constantly looking to make this smaller and portable; rebreathers that could operate on a similar level as oxygen takes seems fine.
And then again, their warp field seems to be active all the time, so it MAY be possible that slight manipulation of the warp bubble (which is manipulation of time and space, and allowing the containment of "normal space") allows for extreme deep sea diving without much equipment.
Another issue that was brought up here was the whole gravity issue and why people were tumbling inside. I actually liked that scene. However MY thoughts were that, its possible because the generators actually do have a particular direction in which they pull all objects "downward" and dont compensate with the orientation of the ship. Or the force of gravity being applied DOES move AROUND the vessel, thus drawing things "downward" into its direction. This could also tie into the inertial dampeners too. Actually when you think about it, if there as some sort of compensation or method in which the inertial dampeners were 100% efficient, people really wouldnt move at all if there was some sudden jolt, as weve seen 4000 bazzillion times.
One more I can think of was the rate in which the Enterprise got from one place to another. A simple outside reasoning for this was that the editors did some major tightening to ensure the pace of the film kept consistent, so there were extreme time lapses. This probably worked TOO well, as certain things seem to happen too fast (Enterprise getting from Sol to Kronos, Moon, etc). Now one inverse explanation for say the moon scene is along the lines that someone else mentioned here; the Enterprise didnt just drop out of warp and took up a stable orbit around the moon, it was shot and FLUNG out of warp. We have seen instances were being violently flung out of warp does have the effect of sling a ship along a trajectory at quite fast speeds unless stabilized. Alongside the amount of times the ship was fired on, and the explosions, that transference of energy would be enough I believe to affect the velocity of the Enterprise and send it hurling toward the earth.
This is all just personal opinion and speculatory as Im a godsdamn Computer Graphics major not an astrophysicist! But its like the same ways people use inverse material to point out whats wrong in a program, they forget that that same inverse material can explain it. I personally liked the movie on a whole and thought is was a great ST film. I WAS slightly disappointed it turned to be Khan after months of saying it wasnt, but after some thought you do realize, what else could they really have done?
So...Did anyone else notice the "refitted" Enterprise at the very end before the credits rolled? Not sure about any other changes, but the Impulse Engines were modified. Instead of two separate "throats", they were one interconnected unit. Just something I noticed...
Yeah, I saw that too... kinda wondered what the point was. Maybe I just missed the bigger details, but changing the engine in the back seems... superficial?
Well, I noticed that the primary hull also has grid lines now, so... Who knows, until its released on video or they put out an Art of Into Darkness art book, we won't know the full extent of the changes. Maybe we'll get lucky and the nacelle struts won't look like a bow-legged coal miner anymore, lol.
The bridge-deck is now higher than it was before the refit, the whole dome-structure sticks out higher now.
There are now lights in those vents on the nacelles' top-front.
The bridge-deck is now higher than it was before the refit, the whole dome-structure sticks out higher now.
There are now lights in those vents on the nacelles' top-front.
Thus that black hole bit from the first was still a bit, but using the warp core to basically seal a rip in space/time was actually an ample and logical solution.
Far from logical. The Warp Engines were the only thing keeping them out of the Black hole. The space-time gradient was curving in on itself faster than the speed of light. Dumping the core should have drop them to normal speed and promptly followed the core to their destruction. Instead they defied physcis and stead of the cores and the ENterprise falling at the same speed the cores got there first somehow...
Side note: Black holes can also be called wormholes, but not vice versa, if I recall correctly lol
It think more specificaly if one enters a black hole and passes through the right orbit instead of hitting the sigularity at the center you can be flung into a white hole and ejected.
On topic: Them doing deep sea diving didnt garner much of an eye roll from me. Its the 23rd century, I expect them to have skintight suits made of materials that could withstand extreme underwater pressures, yet still provide ample mobility. This is actually no different than some of the stuff made today, or the skinsuit being developed for space. Also the bit with the rebreathers makes sense. We are constantly looking to make this smaller and portable; rebreathers that could operate on a similar level as oxygen takes seems fine.
It is a problem Advance Tech would work consistently. Those suits would behave the same way during the fall to Vengeance from Enterprise. But clear nothing is protecting the suits in this scene. So the water dive was complete space majic.
And then again, their warp field seems to be active all the time, so it MAY be possible that slight manipulation of the warp bubble (which is manipulation of time and space, and allowing the containment of "normal space") allows for extreme deep sea diving without much equipment.
Scientifically the use of a warp bubble on Earth should result in planetary destruction. When two large gravitational masses they pull on each other as with the Roche Limit the shearing forces can rend the objects apart. Clearly starships are using warp fields that are equivalent to blackholes thousands of solar masses in order to travel thousands of times the speed of light. (this under the assumption that warp fields work by means compressing and expanding space time while riding a wave of static space.
Far from logical. The Warp Engines were the only thing keeping them out of the Black hole. The space-time gradient was curving in on itself faster than the speed of light. Dumping the core should have drop them to normal speed and promptly followed the core to their destruction. Instead they defied physcis and stead of the cores and the ENterprise falling at the same speed the cores got there first somehow...
Yet we've seen instances where the warp field doesnt immediately just go poof. It take a while to break down. For example, the saucer section of the galaxy class vessel could stay in a sustained warp for a bit. And they dumped several different "cores." Im inclined to believe they had backups or left at least one aboard.
It think more specificaly if one enters a black hole and passes through the right orbit instead of hitting the sigularity at the center you can be flung into a white hole and ejected.
Well there are actually different types of blackholes: point singularity and spinning rim/ring black hole. So if i remember, the spinning rim/ring black hole would be a wormhole, if said person didnt touch the rim/edge.
It is a problem Advance Tech would work consistently. Those suits would behave the same way during the fall to Vengeance from Enterprise. But clear nothing is protecting the suits in this scene. So the water dive was complete space majic.
As much as I love ST, we shouldn't really talk too much about consistency lol. *I* am inclined to give belief to what I stated previously (more the advance materials able to handle the shock, as opposed to manipulation of the warp field). If anything, I have more probably with the water dive in Die Another Day, than this film.
Scientifically the use of a warp bubble on Earth should result in planetary destruction. When two large gravitational masses they pull on each other as with the Roche Limit the shearing forces can rend the objects apart. Clearly starships are using warp fields that are equivalent to blackholes thousands of solar masses in order to travel thousands of times the speed of light. (this under the assumption that warp fields work by means compressing and expanding space time while riding a wave of static space.
Well seeing as it is a distortion of time and space and gravitational influences like the Earth would pretty much be as you stated, kinda lame now to admit that it'll cause planetary destruction. How many times have we've seen ships due in-atmo jump from a planet. Unless they actually work similiar in vain to the jump drives of Bab5 or BSG...*shrugs*
Yet we've seen instances where the warp field doesnt immediately just go poof. It take a while to break down. For example, the saucer section of the galaxy class vessel could stay in a sustained warp for a bit. And they dumped several different "cores." Im inclined to believe they had backups or left at least one aboard.
That's true but we've also seen where the ship does drop immediately out of warp. So plot variable is impacting the results.
Well there are actually different types of blackholes: point singularity and spinning rim/ring black hole. So if i remember, the spinning rim/ring black hole would be a wormhole, if said person didnt touch the rim/edge.
I've read about these and more...there are few varieties. I should probably commit them to memory.
Well seeing as it is a distortion of time and space and gravitational influences like the Earth would pretty much be as you stated, kinda lame now to admit that it'll cause planetary destruction. How many times have we've seen ships due in-atmo jump from a planet. Unless they actually work similiar in vain to the jump drives of Bab5 or BSG...*shrugs*
This is why Voyager ejected all it's warp plasma from the nacelles because even just a little would create a minor gravitational field distortion. There is another way to look at it. Apparently Star Trek fields aren't so much MASS Attractors but Mass inhibitors. Ultimately the difference in the gradient would have the same resulting destruction of the planet. (which is why I concluded that a single torpedo could do unprecedented damage to a planet's surface)
[Normally matter slows down the Higgs field (meaning space slows down in the presence of matter. This is called inertia.) Space at it's normal rate expands and accelerates. This acceleration creates a difference in relative motion between objects. This is what we call gravity.]
But this means rather than "TOWING" a Black hole (A massive gravitational distortion) starships are altering the speed of the Higgs Field indirectly. Effectively a subspace field can do just about anything. Slowing down the Higgs field to a relative zero will reduce the gravitational constant (create a free fall effect between the two objects and nullify their gravitational influence.) Or it can amplify the speed of the Higgs field around an object like a black hole and "move" faster than light.
What ever those warp coils are made of is the real doosy.
We can't manipulate any other force other than Electromagnetic force and Kinetic Force (which isn't a fundamental Force) Trek can obviously manipulate the Higgs Force indirectly by means of radiant energy. It's the only Force that is faster than light or can move faster than light.
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One reason behind it, could be the mass of the ship, but then again, the Enterprise in JJ's movies was built on the ground... which Into Darkness may explain how they got the thing into space...
As for simply being under water, not raising out of the water, even in Voyager's episode "Demon" when they begin to submerge in that biomimetic fluid, they say if they don't get out, it will begin to corrode the hull...
The amount of stress on the nacelles and the saucer lifting out of the water and at the speed they did it... seems like the force would just snap the saucer from the neck like a toothpick... as well as the nacelles from the pylons...
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As for the nacelles etc, why wouldn't they be as vulnerable to a slight impulse turn?
Yes, that's the word used.
Well, space (no air resistance) vs water... ever tried moving your hand in water at the same speed you try to move it in the open air?
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Or going from a standing start to high warp.
Honestly, do you think anyone would go in a starship half way across the galaxy if the designers said to them, "by the way, stay away from planets that generate 1G of pull, or those nacelles will snap right off"
Well, I do know people that made a point about the black hole bit from the first movie... mainly most of my friends who are deeply into astrophysics.
To my knowledge, in Star Trek, the ship itself isn't actually moving through space... space is moving around the ship... it's protected by being inside the warp bubble...
I'm by no means a physicist, so I can't elaborate in detail as someone like Lawrence Krauss or Neil deGrasse Tyson could... I'm sure the hull could handle 1G... 1G is the gravitational force we all normally feel.
However, the amount of force being exerted on some parts of the hull as it pushed up out of the water would've been extraordinary due to the weight of the water... but going back to the size of the JJ Enterprise... some say it's the same size as the TOS Enterprise, but sets seem to indicate it's a heck of a lot bigger than even the Enterprise E... that the dive they took at the beginning to reach the secondary hull's docking port would've killed them due to the water pressure at the depths they would've had to swim down to...
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Not really.
And that would be if they were swimming to the bottom, not half way up it.
Well, I'm sure they also have proper equipment too... it seems like they just jump off the cliff into the water with no oxygen tanks, etc. Heck, the impact alone could've killed them if they didn't hit the water right, not saying it would, but it could.
As much as I would love to make metric the standard measurement system in the US, it still throws me...
725 meters long is 2,378.61 feet long. 158 meters is 518.373 feet...
The Enterprise E is 685.7 meters or 2249.6719 feet long... according to the info on Wikipedia... it's 75 meters or 246.063 feet in height...
They swam all the way down to the port down on the secondary hull... not to the port on the neck...
Which must be a port only on the other side of the ship, because where they enter on the other side is not present on this side of the ship... the port on this side is farther back than where they enter in Into Darkness...
Picture from Ex Astris Scientia.
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1,044 feet (318 m) World record for deepest dive on SCUBA.[nb 4]
They had wetsuits under their clothes and put rebreathers in their mouths once they went under.
Like I said, if they wanted to they could have swum under it, never mind into it.
My criticisms aren't so much hating on the movie, as I actually like the movie, not as much as I like some other Trek movies... but I outright love the movie Twister, but it still has it's problems.
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And I know sometimes one scene can take you right out of a movie, the fall down the stairwell in the first Bourne being a prime example for me, or the mile long skid over concrete on the last one, both with seeminly no ill effects.
Thus that black hole bit from the first was still a bit, but using the warp core to basically seal a rip in space/time was actually an ample and logical solution.
Side note: Black holes can also be called wormholes, but not vice versa, if I recall correctly lol
(most of this is taken from MY interpretation after reading Kaku's Physics of the Impossible; great read btw if you already havent.)
On topic: Them doing deep sea diving didnt garner much of an eye roll from me. Its the 23rd century, I expect them to have skintight suits made of materials that could withstand extreme underwater pressures, yet still provide ample mobility. This is actually no different than some of the stuff made today, or the skinsuit being developed for space. Also the bit with the rebreathers makes sense. We are constantly looking to make this smaller and portable; rebreathers that could operate on a similar level as oxygen takes seems fine.
And then again, their warp field seems to be active all the time, so it MAY be possible that slight manipulation of the warp bubble (which is manipulation of time and space, and allowing the containment of "normal space") allows for extreme deep sea diving without much equipment.
Another issue that was brought up here was the whole gravity issue and why people were tumbling inside. I actually liked that scene. However MY thoughts were that, its possible because the generators actually do have a particular direction in which they pull all objects "downward" and dont compensate with the orientation of the ship. Or the force of gravity being applied DOES move AROUND the vessel, thus drawing things "downward" into its direction. This could also tie into the inertial dampeners too. Actually when you think about it, if there as some sort of compensation or method in which the inertial dampeners were 100% efficient, people really wouldnt move at all if there was some sudden jolt, as weve seen 4000 bazzillion times.
One more I can think of was the rate in which the Enterprise got from one place to another. A simple outside reasoning for this was that the editors did some major tightening to ensure the pace of the film kept consistent, so there were extreme time lapses. This probably worked TOO well, as certain things seem to happen too fast (Enterprise getting from Sol to Kronos, Moon, etc). Now one inverse explanation for say the moon scene is along the lines that someone else mentioned here; the Enterprise didnt just drop out of warp and took up a stable orbit around the moon, it was shot and FLUNG out of warp. We have seen instances were being violently flung out of warp does have the effect of sling a ship along a trajectory at quite fast speeds unless stabilized. Alongside the amount of times the ship was fired on, and the explosions, that transference of energy would be enough I believe to affect the velocity of the Enterprise and send it hurling toward the earth.
This is all just personal opinion and speculatory as Im a godsdamn Computer Graphics major not an astrophysicist! But its like the same ways people use inverse material to point out whats wrong in a program, they forget that that same inverse material can explain it. I personally liked the movie on a whole and thought is was a great ST film. I WAS slightly disappointed it turned to be Khan after months of saying it wasnt, but after some thought you do realize, what else could they really have done?
((Apologies for such a long post))
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There are now lights in those vents on the nacelles' top-front.
QOlKM7I.jpg
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Far from logical. The Warp Engines were the only thing keeping them out of the Black hole. The space-time gradient was curving in on itself faster than the speed of light. Dumping the core should have drop them to normal speed and promptly followed the core to their destruction. Instead they defied physcis and stead of the cores and the ENterprise falling at the same speed the cores got there first somehow...
It think more specificaly if one enters a black hole and passes through the right orbit instead of hitting the sigularity at the center you can be flung into a white hole and ejected.
It is a problem Advance Tech would work consistently. Those suits would behave the same way during the fall to Vengeance from Enterprise. But clear nothing is protecting the suits in this scene. So the water dive was complete space majic.
Scientifically the use of a warp bubble on Earth should result in planetary destruction. When two large gravitational masses they pull on each other as with the Roche Limit the shearing forces can rend the objects apart. Clearly starships are using warp fields that are equivalent to blackholes thousands of solar masses in order to travel thousands of times the speed of light. (this under the assumption that warp fields work by means compressing and expanding space time while riding a wave of static space.
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Yet we've seen instances where the warp field doesnt immediately just go poof. It take a while to break down. For example, the saucer section of the galaxy class vessel could stay in a sustained warp for a bit. And they dumped several different "cores." Im inclined to believe they had backups or left at least one aboard.
Well there are actually different types of blackholes: point singularity and spinning rim/ring black hole. So if i remember, the spinning rim/ring black hole would be a wormhole, if said person didnt touch the rim/edge.
As much as I love ST, we shouldn't really talk too much about consistency lol. *I* am inclined to give belief to what I stated previously (more the advance materials able to handle the shock, as opposed to manipulation of the warp field). If anything, I have more probably with the water dive in Die Another Day, than this film.
Well seeing as it is a distortion of time and space and gravitational influences like the Earth would pretty much be as you stated, kinda lame now to admit that it'll cause planetary destruction. How many times have we've seen ships due in-atmo jump from a planet. Unless they actually work similiar in vain to the jump drives of Bab5 or BSG...*shrugs*
http://burro.astr.cwru.edu/stu/stars_blackhole.html
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Physics of the Impossible:
http://godparticle.webs.com/documents/Kaku,%20Michio%20-%20Physics%20of%20the%20Impossible.pdf
That's true but we've also seen where the ship does drop immediately out of warp. So plot variable is impacting the results.
I've read about these and more...there are few varieties. I should probably commit them to memory.
This is why Voyager ejected all it's warp plasma from the nacelles because even just a little would create a minor gravitational field distortion. There is another way to look at it. Apparently Star Trek fields aren't so much MASS Attractors but Mass inhibitors. Ultimately the difference in the gradient would have the same resulting destruction of the planet. (which is why I concluded that a single torpedo could do unprecedented damage to a planet's surface)
[Normally matter slows down the Higgs field (meaning space slows down in the presence of matter. This is called inertia.) Space at it's normal rate expands and accelerates. This acceleration creates a difference in relative motion between objects. This is what we call gravity.]
But this means rather than "TOWING" a Black hole (A massive gravitational distortion) starships are altering the speed of the Higgs Field indirectly. Effectively a subspace field can do just about anything. Slowing down the Higgs field to a relative zero will reduce the gravitational constant (create a free fall effect between the two objects and nullify their gravitational influence.) Or it can amplify the speed of the Higgs field around an object like a black hole and "move" faster than light.
What ever those warp coils are made of is the real doosy.
We can't manipulate any other force other than Electromagnetic force and Kinetic Force (which isn't a fundamental Force) Trek can obviously manipulate the Higgs Force indirectly by means of radiant energy. It's the only Force that is faster than light or can move faster than light.