"Cause and Effect" was a prop miniature, not a functional set. As I recall, the interior was barely even lit for its brief appearance. I don't see why we're even talking about this given that the original subject was a cargo bay, which were always seen to be the shuttlebay 2/3 set, slightly redressed.
Starting production on the scene tonight. I'm very pleased with how the VOs for this scene came out, I'm just concerned at this one might be another fairly lengthy scene. We'll see what happens.
I know this Garr is a hologram, but would it be easier to make his under tunic Green, just to give more of a different appearance from drakus, giving him a more starfleet and ( one of the good guys) feel
Might even be cool to have him appear as he did in the prologue of Spectre, so the previous Uniform design as well
For the completed shot/scene , will Garr be getting a workstation and desk as well ?
I have been avoiding all the spoiler posts, so it'll be good to see how you came up with this
I've watched through Specter and loved it (The Director's Cut, I didn't see the Vimeo link until after) and I wondered why you had credits for the actors but most of them didn't seem to be voiced by those people, was it because you redid some of the dialog for the DC? I understand your reasoning behind postponing the third-party voice acting, and it makes sense honestly. (I'd go the opposite route, animate to an established audio story, but that's just me.)
One other question...spoiler comparing both 'movies':
Are we going to find out why Garr appeared to himself at the end of Specter and changed that timeline, but ALSO arrived in the Retribution timeline crippled? It appeared that Garr-2 went with Rayf to join Starfleet instead, which would have changed the timeline considerably for the two of them. Was it a different Garr that arrived in the Retribution timeline, perhaps one that wasn't lucky enough to arrive intact?
Now that I've asked...I get the feeling this will all unravel for us in the following episodes. I loved the twists near the end of Specter, I genuinely thought that Kristie was going to say something like "I'm not her, but I'm here for you," or something. I expected her to stay with him. Even imprisoned, I doubt he'd be denied visitors forever, and the Fleet only has one capital punishment that I'm aware of, General Order 7. Yes, she is her own person, but she was born from Garr's memories, and she clearly has feelings for him. They aren't the feelings of the original Kristie, but that doesn't mean they're false. I got the feeling that she wanted to be with him. Then, of course, you yanked out the rug! That was good, but I'd have liked to see them happy, even in some small fashion.
Not planning to flesh out the workspace any more than you see in this preview clip. The dialogue in the coming scene will make you acutely aware of why the Garr hologram is wearing his "alternate" uniform and not a Starfleet outfit. It's not stated outright, but the reason will quickly become clear--at least that's my intent.
Audio VO's are a touchy subject with me, but here's the answer. When Specter was nearing completion, I allowed myself to get pressured into submitting a Net-wide casting call, and I got buried under a deluge (a deluge!) of message traffic from people wanting to audition (one of them can still be seen on YouTube if I'm not mistaken, search for ChristyDaae's Specter audition clips). Problem was, production hadn't been completed, and after I finished the first cut--The Director's Edition, which you see on YouTube--I did indeed make some revisions for The Ultimate Edition. By that time, I'd rounded out a complete voice cast.
Meanwhile, this cast that I'd selected were waiting patiently, and when I had made all the dialogue changes I was going to, I sent out a "Casting Call to Arms," if you will, an announcement that I was ready to let my actors do their lines. The problem was, I only got a few responses, and fewer still who actually did their lines and sent them to me. But since I'd already gone to the trouble to make a full title and end credits sequence that included voice actor names, I didn't feel like going back and removing them.
Early on in the production of Retribution, I was getting hounded by one or two people in particular who were, shall we say, impatient to do their voiceovers, for a script that hadn't even been fleshed out yet. This is why even though I have some candidates in mind for a few parts, I removed all the names from the Retribution title sequence except for my own (since obviously my temp tracks are doing all the voices right now). Around Scene 4, I instituted a general prohibition about bringing up the subject of voiceovers, I've made it clear that's going to be the last phase of production for this film, exactly the way it was intended to be with Specter.
Regarding the whole issue with the timelines:
Garr Prime's original intention was to go back to 2368 and change his decision, in favor of going with Reyf instead of to Intelligence as he originally had, thus averting an entire sequence of events he'd come to regret. The accident at the end of Specter instead threw him back by 78 years, which was when he was so badly hurt. Kristie was with him--in the last ship-to-ship visual of Specter between the Fitzgerald and the ISS Voyager, you can see her sitting in the first officer's position on Garr's bridge.
We'll find out in Scene 38 what happened to her. But the important thing is, by the time Garr Prime "caught up" with his younger self in 2368, he already knew what had to be done, and was still seeking to complete the same mission. Hence, we see Garr Prime briefly at the end of Specter, addressing his younger self (Garr-2, to borrow your term) briefly and wordlessly. Garr-2 then went on to the Antilles with Reyf, leaving Garr Prime to take his place and preserve the timeline (At several points throughout Specter, we get glimpses of Garr-2 aboard the Fitzgerald.)
What happened after that, we don't know. We'll find out before Retribution's end credits roll, but right now Garr-2's history isn't really critical to the story.
Ahh, I see! Thank you for filling me in on the voice overs. I'd be frustrated by that too. I had three auditions that accepted me for the role, but I never received a script for, so I can understand that frustration as well, and I see why you mentioned early in the thread that you'd ignore any further whining about it. Thanks.
I really liked the more obvious point of Rayf noticing Garr on the bridge near the end. But surely Rayf would now have memories of Garr going with him, and none of turning his back on Garr moments after the photo was taken. It also seems to me that Garr-1 created an infinite loop! The way I see it, G1 went back in time in the first 'iteration', taking his own place in Starfleet Security, in order to maintain the timeline. That means that G1 went back in time AGAIN in the second iteration, and so on forever, since we know that G2 was onboard the Fitz at the end of Specter.
Somehow, now we've ended up with two copies of old Garr (one in an endless loop, and one playing Drakus), and a young version beeboping around Starfleet somewhere, as of the last time we saw him. UNLESS...in the Retribution timeline, G1 was not aboard the ISS Voyager when she went back, but everything seems to indicate that the events of Specter happened as we saw them.
I'll stop speculating now. I'm looking forward to more of the story, I love this sort of thing. Great writing.
...no, we've only got two Braiyon Garrs here, Garr Prime (nicknamed Evil Garr), and Garr-2 (Good Garr, who was implied at the end of Scene 37 to have been killed sometime before Retribution.
you should slow down the corridor tracking by 50% - at the current speed it looks like they're flying down the hallways! And you should also slow down the guy in the cargo buy by about 20%, he's moving way too fast as well. Otherwise, great job.
After a long weekend of lots of no time available, time for some feedback.
Scene 37:
A lot of my comments i made about the script you posted of this scene are still valid. However, since they have been mostly dismissed, i dont see the point in repeating them.
There are some other things that caught my eye, and that is that scene 37 is rather dull and static for such a turning/key point in your story.
Also there is one line that is the biggest 'captain obvious'-moment i have heard so far: "Then what we need: is another plan". I think a better line would simply be: "We need a plan." or more cryptic (and my preference in this case): "There is always a way in."
I would also suggest making Reyf a bit more mobile during the conversation. Him standing like a pillar makes this a very long, very dry, and very static scene.
If you really feel like doing it in another way (and breaking the pattern), reconsidder the suggestion about making Garr's background story a flashback scene. It would make the static part a lot shorter, since the most interesting part is E-Garrs background and history.
Last: i would expect the crew to react a lot more to the more interesting facts that come to light, like him being consious for all that time, or section 31 having sun-busting weapons (to name but two, but there are more!). Comparing with DS9, the more dispicable stance of section 31 should really shock your characters, however, they all seem to take it in a sence of 'ok then, sounds nice, what's next?'.
Scene 38 part:
We finally know what is in that cargobay. I suggest, since this is supposed to be another type of Garr (holo-garr), you bring home the difference between the E-Garr and H-Garr by making H-Garr a lot more smiling and joking about, as this was the old Garr character that has been lost a long time ago.
Scene 37:
A lot of my comments i made about the script you posted of this scene are still valid. However, since they have been mostly dismissed, i dont see the point in repeating them.
I was quick to point out that I was still open to alternatives, this was just one version of the scene. I saved the draft of the script that included your flashbacks, but those would be very tricky to make and I still have reservations about sacrificing the interaction with the crew as Reyf does his explanation.
There are some other things that caught my eye, and that is that scene 37 is rather dull and static for such a turning/key point in your story.
Also there is one line that is the biggest 'captain obvious'-moment i have heard so far: "Then what we need: is another plan". I think a better line would simply be: "We need a plan." or more cryptic (and my preference in this case): "There is always a way in."
Ronston was just giving voice to what we all were (hopefully) thinking. I can think of more than one occasion during canon briefing scenes where someone did the same thing. The phrasing was actually chosen very carefully: it's her acknowledgement that there already was a plan, it just didn't work (saying "we need a plan" completely disregards the fact that Reyf came in with one, his refusal to share it with the others notwithstanding). It is a kind of obvious statement to make, but it's the best way to state the problem concisely--any other way I wrote it seemed to invite open debate about it there on the spot, and as you pointed out, the scene is already quite long enough.
I would also suggest making Reyf a bit more mobile during the conversation. Him standing like a pillar makes this a very long, very dry, and very static scene.
I had the same thought, but him walking around would make the scene far too complicated, so I had to drop that. The two alternatives I can propose are cutting some dialogue, or adding in the flashback sequence (or a combination of both). I'm going to leave that one up to the masses--do we cut dialogue, or change the part where Reyf explains Garr's backstory into a flashback sequence?
Comparing with DS9, the more dispicable stance of section 31 should really shock your characters, however, they all seem to take it in a sence of 'ok then, sounds nice, what's next?'.
I hadn't thought about this, but for the most part Section 31's "despicable nature" isn't really touched on that much--they're couched here as the silent protectors, who think they're doing the right thing, even if in doing so they violate the very principles they strive to protect. The only really shocking thing is that they know how to create an artificial supernova--which is not necessarily all that shocking. Looking back at canonical Trek, this wouldn't seem to be that far beyond Dr. Soran's trilithium solar probes; notice also that it's never stated that Section 31 actually used this technology.
We finally know what is in that cargobay. I suggest, since this is supposed to be another type of Garr (holo-garr), you bring home the difference between the E-Garr and H-Garr by making H-Garr a lot more smiling and joking about, as this was the old Garr character that has been lost a long time ago.
I've termed some of your ideas as "silly" before, and this is another one. Recall that the neural template that gave rise to Holo Garr was made during the events of Specter--and the man we saw was hardly the kind to be laughing and joking. The tone of Retribution is very dark, and while there are light moments, it seems beyond inappropriate to have our villain--any version of him--laughing and joking around. The Garr we saw in Specter was hardly "the old Garr character that has been lost a long time ago"--this is a version of him that had been broken and isolated from human contact for five long years, which as we saw in Specter had definitely taken a toll on him.
The dialogue will tell us exactly what we're dealing with, and Holo Garr will be acting much different than Drakus does--he'll be more in tune with what we saw in Specter, but with a slightly unbalanced edge to him that reminds us he had at least partially lost even then. This hologram is only helping Reyf because he knows what Drakus is trying to do, and as we all know, the last thing Garr wanted in Specter was to hurt anyone (it's stated several times that he was counting on any damage he'd done in the present to be undone by his act of going back in time after all, and Holo Garr is going to say it here)--and plotting the end of civilization as we know it goes too far. It's a pointed reminder that for all his faults in Specter, Garr really and truly was a good man with honorable intentions, just as Prentice said in his ready room before.
Holo Garr is a lighter character than Drakus, I'll give you that--but he most certainly will not be laughing and making jokes. Silly idea.
To start off, i forgot one point during my last feedback: I made this point before. Now that this scene is semi-done, i have to make it again: There is no way at all to notice the skin color. There is no way to make a comparison, there is no way to even correctly determine his skin color in the footage that you showed. This make the point rather pointless, because it cannot be 'verrified' in the scene.
I was quick to point out that I was still open to alternatives, this was just one version of the scene. I saved the draft of the script that included your flashbacks, but those would be very tricky to make and I still have reservations about sacrificing the interaction with the crew as Reyf does his explanation.
I was actually referring to the crew knowing about Section 31 before they were told, and Prentice being the joker.
In my suggestion i did not sacrifice all of the crew interaction. But my oppinion is that not all of it is needed. In my suggestion i still had basically 'crew questions and remarks'. I still have a lot of crew interaction. (see my suggestion (it was a copy-paste bash-job, so basically same lines as the current scene)).
Personally, my interest for this scene goes mostly to what happened to the third character in this movie, namely E-Garr. I would like to see what happened to him, and begin to understand his view and version. Simply put: this is the time to humanize E-Garr, and show that to the audience with the flashbacks. Then followed by Reyf's part in the story. As a tradeoff, you get less time with Reyf standing as a pillar, while still having most of the crew interaction.
Ronston was just giving voice to what we all were (hopefully) thinking. I can think of more than one occasion during canon briefing scenes where someone did the same thing.
Where exactly? Because i cannot think of a single one.
The phrasing was actually chosen very carefully: it's her acknowledgement that there already was a plan, it just didn't work (saying "we need a plan" completely disregards the fact that Reyf came in with one, his refusal to share it with the others notwithstanding). It is a kind of obvious statement to make, but it's the best way to state the problem concisely--any other way I wrote it seemed to invite open debate about it there on the spot, and as you pointed out, the scene is already quite long enough.
I understand. But the way you chose this comment it sounds like it is made by somebody who is as dumb as a doorknob. In my mind it sticks out like a sore thumb (that is why i mentioned it). And it has a very high 'captain obvious' sense to it (that is the connection with the dumb people remark).
I would suggest searching for a line that avoids the 'captain obvious', and you will be fine. Even if you make it a passing remark, like "there is always a way in", it is still accentutated by Reyf "i could not agree more" (or similar).
I had the same thought, but him walking around would make the scene far too complicated, so I had to drop that. The two alternatives I can propose are cutting some dialogue, or adding in the flashback sequence (or a combination of both). I'm going to leave that one up to the masses--do we cut dialogue, or change the part where Reyf explains Garr's backstory into a flashback sequence?
Like i stated, i am interested in E-Garr. In my suggestion, you still have a lot of the crew interaction. Any time you can take away from the Reyf standing as a pillar, makes it less obvious that Reyf is standing like a pillar.
If you want to make Reyf more mobile, just let him walk back and forth a few times past the screen. Lots of people do that.
I hadn't thought about this, but for the most part Section 31's "despicable nature" isn't really touched on that much--they're couched here as the silent protectors, who think they're doing the right thing, even if in doing so they violate the very principles they strive to protect. The only really shocking thing is that they know how to create an artificial supernova--which is not necessarily all that shocking. Looking back at canonical Trek, this wouldn't seem to be that far beyond Dr. Soran's trilithium solar probes; notice also that it's never stated that Section 31 actually used this technology.
In all other cases it was one or a few individuals or even hostile empires that attacked the federation. However, in DS9, it was the fact that the federation could do such deeds themselves (and did) that shocked O'brian and Bashir. You have the fact tthat they do without oversight, that they can use any means needed, that they have very destructive technologies, etc.
Also, they should have some reaction to the fact that Garr remained consious, blew up the sun, did it for revenge, etc etc. Remarks in the line of 'it's just getting better and better', or 'how can this happen' or 'who would allow such behaviour', etc, would provide that more shocking base for the crew.
I've termed some of your ideas as "silly" before, and this is another one. Recall that the neural template that gave rise to Holo Garr was made during the events of Specter--and the man we saw was hardly the kind to be laughing and joking. The tone of Retribution is very dark, and while there are light moments, it seems beyond inappropriate to have our villain--any version of him--laughing and joking around. The Garr we saw in Specter was hardly "the old Garr character that has been lost a long time ago"--this is a version of him that had been broken and isolated from human contact for five long years, which as we saw in Specter had definitely taken a toll on him.
The dialogue will tell us exactly what we're dealing with, and Holo Garr will be acting much different than Drakus does--he'll be more in tune with what we saw in Specter, but with a slightly unbalanced edge to him that reminds us he had at least partially lost even then. This hologram is only helping Reyf because he knows what Drakus is trying to do, and as we all know, the last thing Garr wanted in Specter was to hurt anyone (it's stated several times that he was counting on any damage he'd done in the present to be undone by his act of going back in time after all, and Holo Garr is going to say it here)--and plotting the end of civilization as we know it goes too far. It's a pointed reminder that for all his faults in Specter, Garr really and truly was a good man with honorable intentions, just as Prentice said in his ready room before.
Holo Garr is a lighter character than Drakus, I'll give you that--but he most certainly will not be laughing and making jokes. Silly idea.
Actually, it is not silly. Think about it: Didn't Garr use the same basic process as Soong? This means that the first imprint was his personallity, and then he altered it to make his android girlfriend. If you make a carbon copy, including memories, of a distressed mind, that is not a good starting point to make your new girlfriend (the android).
That means that you need a basic, neutral personality to start with: the personality of the original Garr, without the emotional baggage. You stated that this H-Garr is extracted from the android. At that point, you end up with the basic personality again. The only memories H-Garr should have is since the moment Kristy was activated.
And even if E-Garr used his screwed personality, and copied it completely to the android (including memories), Reyf can delete the memories, and/or alter the hologram to get a lot closer to the original Garr.
I was not suggesting that H-Garr would be a clown or anything, but be the friend with Reyf that they originally were, accompanied by their normal friend-behaviour, which is generally more laughing and joking than dark and doom.
why did Garr remain conscious during the nanite-reconstruction? if he's so smart that he can build his own version of the voyager, complete with upgraded borg technology and manipulate starfleet AND the romulan empire to destroy the federation, whats keeping him from programming the nanites to administer anesthesia?
He didn't consider the possibility that he'd be nearly killed? Remember, he was trying to make his plan foolproof, and believed it was. He didn't expect that torpedo to get past his shields.
After the fact, he probably didn't have the ability to do so... having two thirds of your body vaporized is not conducive to complex engineering skills ^.^ I wondered why that was not a built in function...but the Borg don't give a s#it if it hurts.
Maybe he had to keep busy while the nanites repaired him. I had the idea that his ship was badly damaged so he had to repair the ISS while he himself was being repaired
Maybe he had to keep busy while the nanites repaired him. I had the idea that his ship was badly damaged so he had to repair the ISS while he himself was being repaired
i dont buy that. in between rounds of 'surgery' MAYBE
From the sound of it, there wasn't enough of him left to do much of anything until he was healed significantly. I get the feeling it wasn't as though he lost an arm, it was as if two out of every three cells were obliterated.
Good scene, you have managed to tie up alot of unanswered questions and you have managed to make Garr differ from Drakus, by keeping him moot, sarcastic and very in your face / to the point
But what happened to the real garr of this timeline, When Drakus took his place, are we to assume he killed him, or simply hid him away in a stasis so he could be kept safe
So this version of Garr is essentially a 'Hard Light Hologram' ?
What we're seeing is a hologram based on the engrammatic scan he downloaded into his android creation, near the beginning of Specter. This is a version of Braiyon Garr that had been broken and isolated from humanity for five years, but which still wanted to set things right (albeit at any cost), and was certainly not tortured the way Drakus has been.
He's no different than any other hologram, just like the Mark-I EMH. Remember that the Fitzgerald has holoemitters on every deck, a new thing in Specter but by now assumed to be a standard feature.
The dialogue has hinted at it several times, and Holo Garr basically came out and said it here. I've explained this several times, I hope that this is the last time I have to:
Garr Prime was sent back in time at the end of Specter as we saw. His recovery is as it was described. He met up with his younger self, also as we saw at the end of Specter. His younger self--Garr-2--chose the other path, to go with Reyf to the Antilles instead of to Starfleet Intelligence. To preserve the integrity of history, Garr Prime took the place of his younger self at Intelligence, thus preserving history.
All we know about Garr-2 is that he's not present. Reyf and now Holo Garr have both strongly hinted that something happened to him between 2378 and now, but it's something Reyf clearly doesn't want disclosed, and based on his reaction in the turbolift, we have a pretty good idea what it is.
No, the question Dr Timelord asked was: what happened to Garr 2, the altered timeline Garr, the one that went after Reyf; is he dead, gone, a tax collecter, on the Fitz, etc?. i am kinda curious myself too, or are we going to see that in a later scene?
For the ease of this discussion, I'm formally assigning designations to the various incarnations of our villain to keep conversation consistent:
Garr Prime = "Evil Garr," the one we saw in Specter who was sent back in time, and went on to become Drakus
Garr-2 = Garr's younger self, who we saw in cadet dress at the end of Specter, who made the decision to go with Reyf to the Antilles (recall that all through Specter Garr was trying to make Reyf feel guilty about his decision, when the final scene in Specter showed us that all along it was Garr who privately regretted his choice; the appearance by Garr Prime was somehow enough to convince Garr-2 to change his mind and go with Reyf after all--thus the divergent timeline)
Holo Garr = the hologram we've just met in Cargo Bay Six
Some facts:
-Garr-2 is not present in this time frame
-Reyf's reaction in the turbolift earlier tells us he knows what happened, but he doesn't want to say
-Holo Garr almost said it, but Reyf stopped him
This has a deeper meaning, which we'll find out about later on...it's just not relevant to the story yet, so I've decided to save it for later.
how does one newly minted ensign changing careers affect the timeline so much that starship interiors are painted in different colors??? :shiner:
but seriously, the way you have prentice and rayf walking down the corridor, it looks like they're on a moonwalk - theyre bouncing too high. try and keep their height moving within an inch; also if you can slightly randomize the walk patterns, they look cloned
And further, I would love to get my hands on that cargo bay set
By the term Hard Light Hologram, I was kinda referencing to Rimmer from Red Dwarf
From Series I to the start of Series VI, he is just a soft light hologram, he cannot touch or physically hold anything as he has no mass, he is a projection of light on board Red Dwarf, so when they go off in Starbug, he is downloaded into a holo emmiter, but is still soft light and cannot touch anything.
The start of Series VI he gets a Hard Light emmiter which means he has physical form now.
I guess the Star Trek equivalent would be the Doctors Holo emitter, but instead of wearing it on his sleeve, His physical form is based around it so its internal.
I was just wonder if Holo Garr was the same, and had his own internal emmiter/ powersource. Or was being projected by the ships. but i think you answered that he was powered by the emmiters on board the ship
So I am guessing also that Holo Garr has only been activated for a short time ( possibly the last year or so)
I dont know if you would fit it in anywhere, but it would be a great character moment for Holo Garr to talk about how he felt after he was activated finding out what had gone so wrong and the person that Garr/Drakus had turned into and how much different they are
Feedback on the scene:
Despite your claims of my idea being silly, you have a nice sarcastic interaction between Reyf and H-Garr. I dont know if this is the 'normal' friend-interaction between Garr and Reyf, but my idea was not that far off, so you managed to set the difference quite nicely.
I liked the part where you filled in some blanks, even though they were kinda obvious, once it was known that Garr was in the cargo hold.
I do have an idea though:
Now that you have direct knowledge about what E-Garr went though from H-Garr, you could do a quick scene where H-Garr tells about what happened, if you decide to let the last scene (nr 37) remain more or less the same.
one addition to my comments:
why does H-garr has the red eyes? There is absolutely no need for those, and the original Garr did not have (-the need of-) those at the time of his brainscans either (even though he had implants after he started his anti-time experiments). But most of all: he is a brainscan turned hologram. Implants do not transfer over during a brainscan. So what is is with it eyes?
but seriously, the way you have prentice and rayf walking down the corridor, it looks like they're on a moonwalk - theyre bouncing too high. try and keep their height moving within an inch; also if you can slightly randomize the walk patterns, they look cloned
how does one newly minted ensign changing careers affect the timeline so much that starship interiors are painted in different colors??? :shiner:
From Scene 29, "The Haunting":
GARR: "In another lifetime, I helped design this ship."
Garr Prime obviously had some different ideas about how the ship should appear than he did originally.
If you couldn't tell from the ending of Scene 38 (with the music cue "International Code" from the movie Independence Day), I'm leaning towards having a montage sequence next, which shows the crew preparing Prentice's plan but not telling us what it actually is. If I go this route, we'll get a glimpse of the Federation fleet.
What sounds good to you guys? Where do we go from here?
Posts
Starting production on the scene tonight. I'm very pleased with how the VOs for this scene came out, I'm just concerned at this one might be another fairly lengthy scene. We'll see what happens.
Get ready to have your socks knocked off
Might even be cool to have him appear as he did in the prologue of Spectre, so the previous Uniform design as well
For the completed shot/scene , will Garr be getting a workstation and desk as well ?
I have been avoiding all the spoiler posts, so it'll be good to see how you came up with this
One other question...spoiler comparing both 'movies':
Now that I've asked...I get the feeling this will all unravel for us in the following episodes. I loved the twists near the end of Specter, I genuinely thought that Kristie was going to say something like "I'm not her, but I'm here for you," or something. I expected her to stay with him. Even imprisoned, I doubt he'd be denied visitors forever, and the Fleet only has one capital punishment that I'm aware of, General Order 7. Yes, she is her own person, but she was born from Garr's memories, and she clearly has feelings for him. They aren't the feelings of the original Kristie, but that doesn't mean they're false. I got the feeling that she wanted to be with him. Then, of course, you yanked out the rug! That was good, but I'd have liked to see them happy, even in some small fashion.
@andar_b:
Meanwhile, this cast that I'd selected were waiting patiently, and when I had made all the dialogue changes I was going to, I sent out a "Casting Call to Arms," if you will, an announcement that I was ready to let my actors do their lines. The problem was, I only got a few responses, and fewer still who actually did their lines and sent them to me. But since I'd already gone to the trouble to make a full title and end credits sequence that included voice actor names, I didn't feel like going back and removing them.
Early on in the production of Retribution, I was getting hounded by one or two people in particular who were, shall we say, impatient to do their voiceovers, for a script that hadn't even been fleshed out yet. This is why even though I have some candidates in mind for a few parts, I removed all the names from the Retribution title sequence except for my own (since obviously my temp tracks are doing all the voices right now). Around Scene 4, I instituted a general prohibition about bringing up the subject of voiceovers, I've made it clear that's going to be the last phase of production for this film, exactly the way it was intended to be with Specter.
Regarding the whole issue with the timelines:
Garr Prime's original intention was to go back to 2368 and change his decision, in favor of going with Reyf instead of to Intelligence as he originally had, thus averting an entire sequence of events he'd come to regret. The accident at the end of Specter instead threw him back by 78 years, which was when he was so badly hurt. Kristie was with him--in the last ship-to-ship visual of Specter between the Fitzgerald and the ISS Voyager, you can see her sitting in the first officer's position on Garr's bridge.
We'll find out in Scene 38 what happened to her. But the important thing is, by the time Garr Prime "caught up" with his younger self in 2368, he already knew what had to be done, and was still seeking to complete the same mission. Hence, we see Garr Prime briefly at the end of Specter, addressing his younger self (Garr-2, to borrow your term) briefly and wordlessly. Garr-2 then went on to the Antilles with Reyf, leaving Garr Prime to take his place and preserve the timeline (At several points throughout Specter, we get glimpses of Garr-2 aboard the Fitzgerald.)
What happened after that, we don't know. We'll find out before Retribution's end credits roll, but right now Garr-2's history isn't really critical to the story.
Somehow, now we've ended up with two copies of old Garr (one in an endless loop, and one playing Drakus), and a young version beeboping around Starfleet somewhere, as of the last time we saw him. UNLESS...in the Retribution timeline, G1 was not aboard the ISS Voyager when she went back, but everything seems to indicate that the events of Specter happened as we saw them.
I'll stop speculating now. I'm looking forward to more of the story, I love this sort of thing. Great writing.
you should slow down the corridor tracking by 50% - at the current speed it looks like they're flying down the hallways! And you should also slow down the guy in the cargo buy by about 20%, he's moving way too fast as well. Otherwise, great job.
Scene 37:
A lot of my comments i made about the script you posted of this scene are still valid. However, since they have been mostly dismissed, i dont see the point in repeating them.
There are some other things that caught my eye, and that is that scene 37 is rather dull and static for such a turning/key point in your story.
Also there is one line that is the biggest 'captain obvious'-moment i have heard so far: "Then what we need: is another plan". I think a better line would simply be: "We need a plan." or more cryptic (and my preference in this case): "There is always a way in."
I would also suggest making Reyf a bit more mobile during the conversation. Him standing like a pillar makes this a very long, very dry, and very static scene.
If you really feel like doing it in another way (and breaking the pattern), reconsidder the suggestion about making Garr's background story a flashback scene. It would make the static part a lot shorter, since the most interesting part is E-Garrs background and history.
Last: i would expect the crew to react a lot more to the more interesting facts that come to light, like him being consious for all that time, or section 31 having sun-busting weapons (to name but two, but there are more!). Comparing with DS9, the more dispicable stance of section 31 should really shock your characters, however, they all seem to take it in a sence of 'ok then, sounds nice, what's next?'.
Scene 38 part:
We finally know what is in that cargobay. I suggest, since this is supposed to be another type of Garr (holo-garr), you bring home the difference between the E-Garr and H-Garr by making H-Garr a lot more smiling and joking about, as this was the old Garr character that has been lost a long time ago.
I was quick to point out that I was still open to alternatives, this was just one version of the scene. I saved the draft of the script that included your flashbacks, but those would be very tricky to make and I still have reservations about sacrificing the interaction with the crew as Reyf does his explanation.
Ronston was just giving voice to what we all were (hopefully) thinking. I can think of more than one occasion during canon briefing scenes where someone did the same thing. The phrasing was actually chosen very carefully: it's her acknowledgement that there already was a plan, it just didn't work (saying "we need a plan" completely disregards the fact that Reyf came in with one, his refusal to share it with the others notwithstanding). It is a kind of obvious statement to make, but it's the best way to state the problem concisely--any other way I wrote it seemed to invite open debate about it there on the spot, and as you pointed out, the scene is already quite long enough.
I had the same thought, but him walking around would make the scene far too complicated, so I had to drop that. The two alternatives I can propose are cutting some dialogue, or adding in the flashback sequence (or a combination of both). I'm going to leave that one up to the masses--do we cut dialogue, or change the part where Reyf explains Garr's backstory into a flashback sequence?
I hadn't thought about this, but for the most part Section 31's "despicable nature" isn't really touched on that much--they're couched here as the silent protectors, who think they're doing the right thing, even if in doing so they violate the very principles they strive to protect. The only really shocking thing is that they know how to create an artificial supernova--which is not necessarily all that shocking. Looking back at canonical Trek, this wouldn't seem to be that far beyond Dr. Soran's trilithium solar probes; notice also that it's never stated that Section 31 actually used this technology.
The dialogue will tell us exactly what we're dealing with, and Holo Garr will be acting much different than Drakus does--he'll be more in tune with what we saw in Specter, but with a slightly unbalanced edge to him that reminds us he had at least partially lost even then. This hologram is only helping Reyf because he knows what Drakus is trying to do, and as we all know, the last thing Garr wanted in Specter was to hurt anyone (it's stated several times that he was counting on any damage he'd done in the present to be undone by his act of going back in time after all, and Holo Garr is going to say it here)--and plotting the end of civilization as we know it goes too far. It's a pointed reminder that for all his faults in Specter, Garr really and truly was a good man with honorable intentions, just as Prentice said in his ready room before.
Holo Garr is a lighter character than Drakus, I'll give you that--but he most certainly will not be laughing and making jokes. Silly idea.
I can say that Holo Garr is moving exactly as fast as I want him to.
@F9thCenturus: am I that predictable?
I was actually referring to the crew knowing about Section 31 before they were told, and Prentice being the joker.
In my suggestion i did not sacrifice all of the crew interaction. But my oppinion is that not all of it is needed. In my suggestion i still had basically 'crew questions and remarks'. I still have a lot of crew interaction. (see my suggestion (it was a copy-paste bash-job, so basically same lines as the current scene)).
Personally, my interest for this scene goes mostly to what happened to the third character in this movie, namely E-Garr. I would like to see what happened to him, and begin to understand his view and version. Simply put: this is the time to humanize E-Garr, and show that to the audience with the flashbacks. Then followed by Reyf's part in the story. As a tradeoff, you get less time with Reyf standing as a pillar, while still having most of the crew interaction.
Where exactly? Because i cannot think of a single one.
I understand. But the way you chose this comment it sounds like it is made by somebody who is as dumb as a doorknob. In my mind it sticks out like a sore thumb (that is why i mentioned it). And it has a very high 'captain obvious' sense to it (that is the connection with the dumb people remark).
I would suggest searching for a line that avoids the 'captain obvious', and you will be fine. Even if you make it a passing remark, like "there is always a way in", it is still accentutated by Reyf "i could not agree more" (or similar).
Like i stated, i am interested in E-Garr. In my suggestion, you still have a lot of the crew interaction. Any time you can take away from the Reyf standing as a pillar, makes it less obvious that Reyf is standing like a pillar.
If you want to make Reyf more mobile, just let him walk back and forth a few times past the screen. Lots of people do that.
In all other cases it was one or a few individuals or even hostile empires that attacked the federation. However, in DS9, it was the fact that the federation could do such deeds themselves (and did) that shocked O'brian and Bashir. You have the fact tthat they do without oversight, that they can use any means needed, that they have very destructive technologies, etc.
Also, they should have some reaction to the fact that Garr remained consious, blew up the sun, did it for revenge, etc etc. Remarks in the line of 'it's just getting better and better', or 'how can this happen' or 'who would allow such behaviour', etc, would provide that more shocking base for the crew.
That means that you need a basic, neutral personality to start with: the personality of the original Garr, without the emotional baggage. You stated that this H-Garr is extracted from the android. At that point, you end up with the basic personality again. The only memories H-Garr should have is since the moment Kristy was activated.
And even if E-Garr used his screwed personality, and copied it completely to the android (including memories), Reyf can delete the memories, and/or alter the hologram to get a lot closer to the original Garr.
I was not suggesting that H-Garr would be a clown or anything, but be the friend with Reyf that they originally were, accompanied by their normal friend-behaviour, which is generally more laughing and joking than dark and doom.
After the fact, he probably didn't have the ability to do so... having two thirds of your body vaporized is not conducive to complex engineering skills ^.^ I wondered why that was not a built in function...but the Borg don't give a s#it if it hurts.
i dont buy that. in between rounds of 'surgery' MAYBE
So this version of Garr is essentially a 'Hard Light Hologram' ?
What we're seeing is a hologram based on the engrammatic scan he downloaded into his android creation, near the beginning of Specter. This is a version of Braiyon Garr that had been broken and isolated from humanity for five years, but which still wanted to set things right (albeit at any cost), and was certainly not tortured the way Drakus has been.
He's no different than any other hologram, just like the Mark-I EMH. Remember that the Fitzgerald has holoemitters on every deck, a new thing in Specter but by now assumed to be a standard feature.
Garr Prime was sent back in time at the end of Specter as we saw. His recovery is as it was described. He met up with his younger self, also as we saw at the end of Specter. His younger self--Garr-2--chose the other path, to go with Reyf to the Antilles instead of to Starfleet Intelligence. To preserve the integrity of history, Garr Prime took the place of his younger self at Intelligence, thus preserving history.
All we know about Garr-2 is that he's not present. Reyf and now Holo Garr have both strongly hinted that something happened to him between 2378 and now, but it's something Reyf clearly doesn't want disclosed, and based on his reaction in the turbolift, we have a pretty good idea what it is.
Garr Prime = "Evil Garr," the one we saw in Specter who was sent back in time, and went on to become Drakus
Garr-2 = Garr's younger self, who we saw in cadet dress at the end of Specter, who made the decision to go with Reyf to the Antilles (recall that all through Specter Garr was trying to make Reyf feel guilty about his decision, when the final scene in Specter showed us that all along it was Garr who privately regretted his choice; the appearance by Garr Prime was somehow enough to convince Garr-2 to change his mind and go with Reyf after all--thus the divergent timeline)
Holo Garr = the hologram we've just met in Cargo Bay Six
Some facts:
-Garr-2 is not present in this time frame
-Reyf's reaction in the turbolift earlier tells us he knows what happened, but he doesn't want to say
-Holo Garr almost said it, but Reyf stopped him
This has a deeper meaning, which we'll find out about later on...it's just not relevant to the story yet, so I've decided to save it for later.
but seriously, the way you have prentice and rayf walking down the corridor, it looks like they're on a moonwalk - theyre bouncing too high. try and keep their height moving within an inch; also if you can slightly randomize the walk patterns, they look cloned
And further, I would love to get my hands on that cargo bay set
The start of Series VI he gets a Hard Light emmiter which means he has physical form now.
I guess the Star Trek equivalent would be the Doctors Holo emitter, but instead of wearing it on his sleeve, His physical form is based around it so its internal.
I was just wonder if Holo Garr was the same, and had his own internal emmiter/ powersource. Or was being projected by the ships. but i think you answered that he was powered by the emmiters on board the ship
So I am guessing also that Holo Garr has only been activated for a short time ( possibly the last year or so)
I dont know if you would fit it in anywhere, but it would be a great character moment for Holo Garr to talk about how he felt after he was activated finding out what had gone so wrong and the person that Garr/Drakus had turned into and how much different they are
Despite your claims of my idea being silly, you have a nice sarcastic interaction between Reyf and H-Garr. I dont know if this is the 'normal' friend-interaction between Garr and Reyf, but my idea was not that far off, so you managed to set the difference quite nicely.
I liked the part where you filled in some blanks, even though they were kinda obvious, once it was known that Garr was in the cargo hold.
I do have an idea though:
one addition to my comments:
why does H-garr has the red eyes? There is absolutely no need for those, and the original Garr did not have (-the need of-) those at the time of his brainscans either (even though he had implants after he started his anti-time experiments). But most of all: he is a brainscan turned hologram. Implants do not transfer over during a brainscan. So what is is with it eyes?
From Scene 29, "The Haunting":
GARR: "In another lifetime, I helped design this ship."
Garr Prime obviously had some different ideas about how the ship should appear than he did originally.
If you couldn't tell from the ending of Scene 38 (with the music cue "International Code" from the movie Independence Day), I'm leaning towards having a montage sequence next, which shows the crew preparing Prentice's plan but not telling us what it actually is. If I go this route, we'll get a glimpse of the Federation fleet.
What sounds good to you guys? Where do we go from here?