Vulcans are very bad, but they do bring in a lot of moral for the inexperienced. Still they chew too much ammo and are very inaccurate, as you said. I've heard putting an extension to the barrel makes it more accurate though. Is that a myth, or would it work?
A: Its a myth.
B: It wouldn't matter. As my Dad taught me when I was younger (benefits of being a military kid) In any naval engagement a CIWS system (current) would be able to destroy maybe one missile, and thats assuming its not a sea-skimmer. Whereas a vessel, say a destroyer class, would have anything up to three? maybe four Anti-shipping missiles fired at it. Or worse. Torpedoes. (At which your CIWS is a glorified fuse-box for all the use it has to you then.)
But when Laser or Metalstorm CIWS are put into "regular" use the usefullness will increase greatly. (In truth now I think they prefer "anti-missile" missiles for CIWS work. The Vulcan CIWS is a literal last ditch effort.)
Nice updates mate !! :thumb: .... (plugged into a terminal at a shopping mall atm ... lol) So I'm saving peoples updates to a flash drive to browse later .. limited on time atm to post better feedback, ... but the updates are Great :cool: !!
Hmmm even though your CIWS is looking great, I feel it doesn't quite fit into the 40K universe. The radar is the main thing that pulls it out of the 40K universe. Perhaps if you'd change that to a more 40K style auspex, with a more 'steampunk' feel?
And about the Phalanx, it's is indeed one of the more inferior CIWS systems out there, and not updated since a long time. From what I've heard and read, the dutch Goalkeeper system is much more capable for instance.
@Meph: Agreed, though standard "miniguns" for CIWS are a horribly outdated concept anyway. By the time the CIWS spots the missile it generally has under two seconds to destroy it.
Many thanks to all for your comments, suggestions and technical discussion about Vulcan Phalanx CIWS lacks ... I would add a good story on Phalanx: during one of the first demonstration Phalanx had a failure due to on-board Operative System (Windows NT ?!?!?!?!?!?!) crash.
The last release is based on VX-Works real-time OS ... luckily (I personally know their products cause I'm working in a telecommunication research center and I have to say it's not so bad).
Regarding the usefulness of this model in the battlebarge project, I obviously intend to introduce a modified and simplyfied (as I said) version of it in W40K style; in particular I want to keep the vulcan support design, the gun itself and the ammo tank (maybe the gun will be in triple configuration)
Many thanks to all for your comments, suggestions and technical discussion about Vulcan Phalanx CIWS lacks ... I would add a good story on Phalanx: during one of the first demonstration Phalanx had a failure due to on-board Operative System (Windows NT ?!?!?!?!?!?!) crash.
The last release is based on VX-Works real-time OS ... luckily (I personally know their products cause I'm working in a telecommunication research center and I have to say it's not so bad).
Regarding the usefulness of this model in the battlebarge project, I obviously intend to introduce a modified and simplyfied (as I said) version of it in W40K style; in particular I want to keep the vulcan support design, the gun itself and the ammo tank (maybe the gun will be in triple configuration)
@ Jas: welcome back mate
I would ditch the "R2-D2" tank entirely. There is nothing even remotely 40k feeling about it. Maybe replace it with a Gargoyle? That'd fit.
Fantastic model regardless. Perhaps do a high-poly one for an Imperial Guard unit as well as replicating it on the battleship.
EDIT: Ah, if you type in "CIWS" into google images, there are some interesting designs that I think are almost 40k as they are, although you'd need to, of course, "bulk them up" to fit with the hero-scale that they use.
Many thanks for the precious advices and links mates (I've seen a lot of good material on the web) ... even if Armondikov wants to kill me with modeling work .
Above all, I want a design that matches the current battlebarge modeling style and level of detail so, I think that the following piece is enough for the moment. I'll resume the work on it once the battlebarge main structures will be completed.
EDIT: more work on this model mainly on guns and lateral pod scale
Many thanks for the precious advices and links mates (I've seen a lot of good material on the web) ... even if Armondikov wants to kill me with modeling work .
Above all, I want a design that matches the current battlebarge modeling style and level of detail so, I think that the following piece is enough for the moment. I'll resume the work on it once the battlebarge main structures will be completed.
EDIT: more work on this model mainly on guns and lateral pod scale
"Say hello to my three not so little friends!" Looks fantastic andcar1969 as does the whole thing, however I think the 'tri-assault cannons' look a little to high tech for 40k.
I don't want to kill you with modeling work, just overload you with ideas! It's looking good, I see that you've kept the bits from the Phalanx that work. It does need a few gothic details, but probably not many.
Very nice model. I couldn't see any reason why not, I'd relocate the ammo hopper (perhaps to a system that works through the "legs" of the CIWS.
Tangent: Funny thing is that the R2-D2 (Naval Slang for the Vulcan) is a piece of crap
A: Aircraft will never get close enough to a ship for the Vulcans own radar to even see it. (LASMs are the only thing they'd use in an Anti-shipping role.
B: They only cover one section of the ship.
C: Their inaccuracy is extraordinary. To the point that my father (who was in the navy) said flat out he wouldn't trust one of them to bring down a blimp before it had dropped its payload on them. 99% of Anti-Shipping missiles are sea-skimming missiles that bypass its Radar and targetting ENTIRELY.
The fact of the matter is that even the most advanced up-to-date Vulcan CIWS is way out-of-date.
I have a background in weapons modelling from a physics point of view in my work on modern simulator systems for a number of NATO countries. A few points on current CIWS systems.
A) Phalanx is an early system based on a 50's gun that has been upgraded numerous times and in it's newest incarnation is pretty accurate, the land based system used by the US and British army is capable of shooting 81mm mortar rounds out the sky. The newest naval variants are also quite capable of dealing with early sea skimmers like the AM39/MM38 Exocet and Harpoon though as has been pointed out, not if it's a saturation attack. Also with the lightweight nature of the 20mm round, even multiple strikes on target maybe not enough to stop the missile hitting, even if it is just a broken flaming mass. Part of it's reputation for innaccuracy came from the airforce mount which was designed to give a degree of "bounce" to give a scatter gun approach. However against stealth sea skimmers like the NSM or the supersonic AS missiles the Russians use they are next to useless and are as much retained for their ability to deal with small motor boat attacks out to a couple of miles with the new surface attack software.
The Dutch Goalkeeper system is significantly more effective with it's 7 barrel 30mm gun (the same as used in the A-10 Warthog). The range is far greater and it can deal with multiple targets due to only a very short burst being required to down each target. The downside is much greater deck penetration and weight so especially in smaller ships it's a bit of a non starter.
C) A newer approach is to use fast firing bigger guns with a single shot kill capability like the Oerlikon 35mm with AHEAD rounds and the Bofors 57mm (now BAe 57mm). These are extremely accurate and fast firing guns that are very effective against sea skimmers and also normal aircraft out to quite a distance. They also have the bonus of being useful for surface attack work. The US Navy is adopting the 57mm as the Phalanx replacement and should give quite a boost in performance.
D) One weapon which didn't make it (yet) is the Italian Breda Midas system which used twin 7 barrel 25mm Oerlikon guns and puts out over 10,000rpm accurately and to quite a range.
E) There are a number of Russian variations on twin 6 barrel 30mm guns with side packed missiles as well which are very effective indeed.
F) Another new approach is having guided rounds like in the Oto Melara 76mm Super Rapid which for anti missile work can use a laser guided round for single shot kill out to a very long range. Very handy for a jinking target as basically all your rounds become mini guided missiles.
@ Kadaeux, Xanthra, Hawk Silk & Meph: thank you for comments mates and glad to see you like the design. In the next detailing phase I'll take into account your suggestions (gothic details are in my mind too)
@ Armondikov: I'll appreciate your ideas so, just overload me
@ Norseman: welcome in this thread and ... thank you for in depth close examination and very interesting details
I was just thinking, a giant skull shaped radar dome in place of the "R2D2" dome on a real CIWS would be hilarious. Not that yours needs one, just the idea of it seems simultaneously so over the top yet so Imperium of Man.
Anyway is that thing going to be shooting bolter rounds? It looks like it could be the naval version of the Vulcan Megabolter.
Ok, it's time to update the Battlebarge main structure.
I'm near to complete the third and fourth floor of the main body with the first modeling step on second central block.
TODO: restyle the first block and model the upper central tower with pods
So where are the CIWS turrets going to go? (Then I can get a rough scale a tell you what it really is (For example if it was to go on the mounts at the sides there you'd be looking at triple-gatling Quake Cannons.. *assuming severely oversized quake cannons*)
@ Xanthra: thank you and ... yes, I'll begin to introduce more details on the entire model once the battlebarge will be completed
@ Kadauex: the following pic shows three types of weapon systems (and their placement) I'm going to introduce (for the CIWS those illustrated are a subset of indicative positions)
You can see also a restyling work made on bombardment cannons and lance battery turrets (I'll post big pics very soon)
just a nit pick I know its far from finished but wont having such details on the guns make the ship look odd as its bare, I dont know if you plan to detail it more or finish it in the textures? Other than that looks good!
just a nit pick I know its far from finished but wont having such details on the guns make the ship look odd as its bare, I dont know if you plan to detail it more or finish it in the textures? Other than that looks good!
Yeah, I know what you mean there. Keeping the level of detail constant on something this size is, to say the least, difficult. But I reckon it's possible here.
I know you can do it you obv have the skill it just takes time I suppose and how long you are willing to spend on it, im sure it will be great whatever he decides, but keeping it consistent in the detail department will be important.
Posts
A: Its a myth.
B: It wouldn't matter. As my Dad taught me when I was younger (benefits of being a military kid) In any naval engagement a CIWS system (current) would be able to destroy maybe one missile, and thats assuming its not a sea-skimmer. Whereas a vessel, say a destroyer class, would have anything up to three? maybe four Anti-shipping missiles fired at it. Or worse. Torpedoes. (At which your CIWS is a glorified fuse-box for all the use it has to you then.)
But when Laser or Metalstorm CIWS are put into "regular" use the usefullness will increase greatly. (In truth now I think they prefer "anti-missile" missiles for CIWS work. The Vulcan CIWS is a literal last ditch effort.)
Jas
And about the Phalanx, it's is indeed one of the more inferior CIWS systems out there, and not updated since a long time. From what I've heard and read, the dutch Goalkeeper system is much more capable for instance.
The last release is based on VX-Works real-time OS ... luckily
Regarding the usefulness of this model in the battlebarge project, I obviously intend to introduce a modified and simplyfied (as I said) version of it in W40K style; in particular I want to keep the vulcan support design, the gun itself and the ammo tank (maybe the gun will be in triple configuration)
@ Jas: welcome back mate
I would ditch the "R2-D2" tank entirely. There is nothing even remotely 40k feeling about it. Maybe replace it with a Gargoyle? That'd fit.
1) Replace the "base" with something more like a Tarantula or mount it on a Chimera-like base. ( http://www.ifelix.co.uk/images800/a10020.jpg http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/heavybtaran2store.jpg )
2) Up the size of the barrel to unrealistic proportions, bulk it up, and change the front to the - incredibly pointless - 40K dreadnought assault cannon style. ( http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/acatalog/assaultcannonstore.jpg )
3) Cut off the top - i.e., just the dome - of the R2-D2, lower it so you still have those sensor bits on the side and add the radar from a Damocles Command Rhino ( http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Bestofshow/Bestofshow_rhino.jpg )
Fantastic model regardless. Perhaps do a high-poly one for an Imperial Guard unit as well as replicating it on the battleship.
EDIT: Ah, if you type in "CIWS" into google images, there are some interesting designs that I think are almost 40k as they are, although you'd need to, of course, "bulk them up" to fit with the hero-scale that they use.
This reminds me somewhat of the forgeworld Predator turret, although I think as it is, it's quite Tau: http://www.navalhistory.dk/images/Vaaben/Kanoner_e45/35mmMkM05LvSa.jpg
This is just nice: http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/seed-destiny/lineart/minerva-ciws.jpg
And this is almost like those Guard Tarantulas as it is (without the smooth, spherical radar/sensor dome, of course): http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/2295/newciwsapr24pv6.jpg
Above all, I want a design that matches the current battlebarge modeling style and level of detail so, I think that the following piece is enough for the moment. I'll resume the work on it once the battlebarge main structures will be completed.
EDIT: more work on this model mainly on guns and lateral pod scale
Very very cool.
That is fantastic! With a few skulls/Aquilas/arches it will be perfect.
Regards Hawk.
I have a background in weapons modelling from a physics point of view in my work on modern simulator systems for a number of NATO countries. A few points on current CIWS systems.
A) Phalanx is an early system based on a 50's gun that has been upgraded numerous times and in it's newest incarnation is pretty accurate, the land based system used by the US and British army is capable of shooting 81mm mortar rounds out the sky. The newest naval variants are also quite capable of dealing with early sea skimmers like the AM39/MM38 Exocet and Harpoon though as has been pointed out, not if it's a saturation attack. Also with the lightweight nature of the 20mm round, even multiple strikes on target maybe not enough to stop the missile hitting, even if it is just a broken flaming mass. Part of it's reputation for innaccuracy came from the airforce mount which was designed to give a degree of "bounce" to give a scatter gun approach. However against stealth sea skimmers like the NSM or the supersonic AS missiles the Russians use they are next to useless and are as much retained for their ability to deal with small motor boat attacks out to a couple of miles with the new surface attack software.
C) A newer approach is to use fast firing bigger guns with a single shot kill capability like the Oerlikon 35mm with AHEAD rounds and the Bofors 57mm (now BAe 57mm). These are extremely accurate and fast firing guns that are very effective against sea skimmers and also normal aircraft out to quite a distance. They also have the bonus of being useful for surface attack work. The US Navy is adopting the 57mm as the Phalanx replacement and should give quite a boost in performance.
D) One weapon which didn't make it (yet) is the Italian Breda Midas system which used twin 7 barrel 25mm Oerlikon guns and puts out over 10,000rpm accurately and to quite a range.
E) There are a number of Russian variations on twin 6 barrel 30mm guns with side packed missiles as well which are very effective indeed.
F) Another new approach is having guided rounds like in the Oto Melara 76mm Super Rapid which for anti missile work can use a laser guided round for single shot kill out to a very long range. Very handy for a jinking target as basically all your rounds become mini guided missiles.
Oh, and it's your first post here too, so this discussion was enough to bring out from lurking ey? Welcome aboard!
@ Armondikov: I'll appreciate your ideas so, just overload me
@ Norseman: welcome in this thread and ... thank you for in depth close examination and very interesting details
Anyway is that thing going to be shooting bolter rounds? It looks like it could be the naval version of the Vulcan Megabolter.
I'm near to complete the third and fourth floor of the main body with the first modeling step on second central block.
TODO: restyle the first block and model the upper central tower with pods
Yeah that's the ticket. It still needs something on top, but it's great.
@ Xanthra: thank you and ... yes, I'll begin to introduce more details on the entire model once the battlebarge will be completed
@ Kadauex: the following pic shows three types of weapon systems (and their placement) I'm going to introduce (for the CIWS those illustrated are a subset of indicative positions)
You can see also a restyling work made on bombardment cannons and lance battery turrets (I'll post big pics very soon)
Yeah, I know what you mean there. Keeping the level of detail constant on something this size is, to say the least, difficult. But I reckon it's possible here.