3DViper MK2 Sharp Corners

under9stars

Hi Community,

So, I am endeavoring to build my own MK2 in subD from my much beloved BSG. I have a nice cage so far of the fuselage and I am starting to work on the cockpit area and will soon tackle the side opening that exposes some of the internals. I am having some serious challenges figuring out how to achieve some of the sharp corners needed in the indicated areas. Right now I am at the cockpit, but I see the same issues coming up once I get to the side details. I tried adding additional cuts to sharpen up the corners in question, but I am sure you can guess that I will start to experience unwanted creases when I have too many cuts to close together.

This image shows the uncut cage.

This image shows cuts made and edges moved to sharpen up the cockpit surrounding edges and its several corners.


This image shows the result in subD mode. Corners are not sharp enough and to add more cuts will certainly result in unwanted creasing that has already begun to happen.


I would be forever grateful to get input and advice on how to approach these areas.

Thanks for looking.

-Jeremy

JeffrySG

Yes, that is always an important decision. Go with subd or just poly, or a combo. This viper is a case where I would probably start with subd to get the nice smooth look of the fuselage, and then I'd freeze the mesh and clean it up to remove the unneeded loops. Then you can start to cut away areas that you have picked out in red. Many of the really small elements will look nice with a single bevel on them or some small amount of rounding but I don't think it's necessary to have the full power of a subd model on those parts. And as you're finding, you're going to get to areas that are going to be incredibly difficult to subd model.

So, I would recommend getting the base fuselage done - nice and even and smooth - save a copy - and then freeze - clean it up - and then start to work in your detail elements.

I'm sure you'll get some other good input here too. You might even get someone who has worked on the show to give you a few tips.... one never knows...

--J

JeffrySG

ps. if it helps, you can look through my WIP on my viper. You'll very quickly see how my viper is not very detailed but it holds up in the renders. Mine was all poly modeled so it get's smoother as the wip images progress. It will at least show you how good a really crappy model can look. When I go back and look at my wires, the look really poor. But it will at least show you how I started building in some detail.

Viper Mk2 flicker wip images

Maybe WIZ or al3d could chime in with some advice as they have both built really great vipers...

JeffrySG

ps. you do have the zoic orthos for reference? if you don't let me know and I can email them to you.

under9stars

Jeff,

Once again, thank you so much for your help so far!!! Your suggestions definitely shed light on the situation and give me confidence to move forward.

I will most certainly spend some time looking over you WIP, which is really what I would like to get from you and others. I have put so much effort and faith into subD modeling lately that I think I have lost touch of the benefit of utilizing polys at times.

I do have the Zoic images and they are setup in my scene as the ref planes. Thanks for offering that.

I will continue to post my WIP and I look forward to anything else you have that comes to mind.

under9stars

Well, thanks again to "JeffrySG", I explored not trying to keep my mesh in subD, and froze to polys. This made a world of difference. It really opened a big door to hear that G.K.'s Viper for the show was done in LW and was most likely a poly model. So, after freezing, yes, there were many edge loops to select and delete, but Modo is great with this operation and I was able to clean up the resulting dense mesh in a matter of minutes. I then went on to give a trial run to creating that multiple angled edge around the cockpit with some point editing and then Modo's powerful beveling tools. I am feeling good about the results and will probably go to bed without cursing to myself. I hear "Al3D" did a very nice Viper (I was not able to find any posts of it, though) and some others, as well, so I would still love to hear input on the whole to subD or to poly topic, and any feedback on my WIP.
Tomorrow I shall repeat what I did tonight but take more care in order to produce a nice, clean mesh. The following images are of my test run.

Thanks for looking!

JeffrySG

Looking nice!

No problem on the input. Al's Viper was done a while ago (before the big server crash on SFM) so it's probably not available here anymore. Keep on posting updates as you have them.

JeffrySG

Also, if you edit your first post and attach a small picture using the forum file attachments, you'll get that as a thumbnail in the WIP section.

D.M.J.

When I built mine, I started with NURBS for the main hull, it was a surface lofted over cross sections placed at logical locations (the tip of the nose, tip, that little ridge across the nose half way down, the cockpit etc.), then converted to a sufficiently dense poly object to add details. That way I got a really nice complex curve to the hull AND the arbitrary geometry advantage of polys.

If you're determined (or restricted through app) to use Sub-D, although I gave up after a while when I tried it, I got some mileage out of it by not trying to model that ridge that runs along most of the length of the top of the nose (aaaargh @ imprecise descriptions, these things have no proper name that I can think of...) instead I modelled the nose smooth and added that in with extrudes and bevels after converting to poly. Otherwise the mesh tended to pinch horribly where the ridge merged in to the hull because of all the points clumped together.

under9stars

JeffrySG wrote: »

Also, if you edit your first post and attach a small picture using the forum file attachments, you'll get that as a thumbnail in the WIP section.

Sorry, Jeff. I am not quite sure what you were suggesting. Do you mind clarifying a bit more?

-Jeremy

under9stars

D.M.J. wrote: »

When I built mine, I started with NURBS for the main hull, it was a surface lofted over cross sections placed at logical locations (the tip of the nose, tip, that little ridge across the nose half way down, the cockpit etc.), then converted to a sufficiently dense poly object to add details. That way I got a really nice complex curve to the hull AND the arbitrary geometry advantage of polys.

If you're determined (or restricted through app) to use Sub-D, although I gave up after a while when I tried it, I got some mileage out of it by not trying to model that ridge that runs along most of the length of the top of the nose (aaaargh @ imprecise descriptions, these things have no proper name that I can think of...) instead I modelled the nose smooth and added that in with extrudes and bevels after converting to poly. Otherwise the mesh tended to pinch horribly where the ridge merged in to the hull because of all the points clumped together.

That's great info, David!!! I can't really tell you why I was trying to maintain a subD mesh, but I have definitely resolved to doing a poly mesh instead. It is extremely helpful to hear examples of people's processes, as you and Jeff confirmed: start with subD or NURBS object to get the smooth curved aspects, then convert to polys to created the finer details.

Anything else you can think of as I go along would be much appreciated.

BTW, do you have link to your viper?

thanks,
Jeremy

backstept

under9stars wrote: »

Sorry, Jeff. I am not quite sure what you were suggesting. Do you mind clarifying a bit more?

-Jeremy

3D WIPs - Scifi-Meshes.com
you can see the thread thumbnails here . . .

just click 'edit' on the first post in this thread , and click 'go advanced' and scroll down to 'manage attachments'

Foehammer

Great looking model. Mind telling me what modeler you're using currently?

Lt. Cannonfodder

That would Modo. Great app btw.

D.M.J.

Here's a pic of mine that I had uploaded to the SFM server (textures incomplete on this pic but the hull shape hasn't changed since I finished texturing it), you can see the nice curve I got on the hull, which is practically impossible to get from a pure poly object, especially one which goes from rounded trapezoid to lozenge in cross section along its length!

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/attachments/3d-wips/14045d1156500448-viper-mk-ii-take-ii-part-ii-viper_test_074.jpg

One thing which may not be immediately apparent is that the cockpit window, frame, and the ridge which runs backwards from the cockpit is all part of the same poly extrusion that made the ridge down the nose.

Break your modelling down into chunks which suit each method of modelling, and if you ever find yourself screaming in frustration at a method's inability to efficiently do what you want it to, either convert now or add it to a list of things to do after you've converted later.

And the best advice I can give (even though it is obvious, it can never be stated enough) is to save regularly and keep multiple copies, ESPECIALLY before converting object type. You never want to have to redo an entire object from scratch just because you converted to poly before you had finished all the modifications you needed to do in NURBS or Sub-D! I may have over 20 variously-completed copies of my Viper (numerically named, all with thumbnails, and with a render of each one with the number marked on the image) on my hard drive but I'd rather sacrifice the HDD space than have to redo something from scratch.

I hope you're looking forward to the wings, they're a lot more complex than they look

Text block attack over.

JeffrySG

Yes, I also always do incremental saves on projects. For something like my viper I may end up with 50 to 100 different versions as I go along. And if I ever have to grab a part from an older version, I know I probably have it.

under9stars

D.M.J. wrote: »

Here's a pic of mine that I had uploaded to the SFM server (textures incomplete on this pic but the hull shape hasn't changed since I finished texturing it), you can see the nice curve I got on the hull, which is practically impossible to get from a pure poly object, especially one which goes from rounded trapezoid to lozenge in cross section along its length!

http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/attachments/3d-wips/14045d1156500448-viper-mk-ii-take-ii-part-ii-viper_test_074.jpg

One thing which may not be immediately apparent is that the cockpit window, frame, and the ridge which runs backwards from the cockpit is all part of the same poly extrusion that made the ridge down the nose.

Break your modelling down into chunks which suit each method of modelling, and if you ever find yourself screaming in frustration at a method's inability to efficiently do what you want it to, either convert now or add it to a list of things to do after you've converted later.

And the best advice I can give (even though it is obvious, it can never be stated enough) is to save regularly and keep multiple copies, ESPECIALLY before converting object type. You never want to have to redo an entire object from scratch just because you converted to poly before you had finished all the modifications you needed to do in NURBS or Sub-D! I may have over 20 variously-completed copies of my Viper (numerically named, all with thumbnails, and with a render of each one with the number marked on the image) on my hard drive but I'd rather sacrifice the HDD space than have to redo something from scratch.

I hope you're looking forward to the wings, they're a lot more complex than they look

Text block attack over.

Thanks, David. Awesome Viper!

It sounds like the challenge is knowing when to say when. I am sure I will hit some walls and dead ends along the way. I feel I have an adequate cage which was developed from Modo's curve and patch system. I already did a test run (not pictured) of subDing the cage with edge-weights in the appropriate places, and then freezing to polys.

I agree with the iteration saves. I am actually pretty good about doing that because of the exact reasons you stated. You forgot to mention saving regularly because of the inevitable app crashes and the resulting loss of hours of work.:-)

BTW, are you able to post some wires? Wire seem to be worth a thousand words.

Thanks again!

under9stars

Foehammer wrote: »

Great looking model. Mind telling me what modeler you're using currently?

Yes, Cameron, it is Modo 302 I am using. So far I am loving Modo. I have completed the Seahorse, the Tank, and the Lemans C9 series, all by Andy Brown and Modo is quickly becoming a warm and powerful home for me.

under9stars

JeffrySG wrote: »

Yes, I also always do incremental saves on projects. For something like my viper I may end up with 50 to 100 different versions as I go along. And if I ever have to grab a part from an older version, I know I probably have it.

Sounds like you have your own bonafide viper junkyard, Jeff. That could make a cool scene.

under9stars

Here are some different displays of the what I feel is my final (if one could ever say that) of the fuselage. I had reworked and tidied up my curves. I found some dreadful errors that I cleaned up as much as possible. I also forgot about the bottom "bump" that runs from the nose to the midsection. I figured I could just extrude or bevel after the conversion to polys, but I decided to just build the curves for it. Then I re-patched the whole fuselage. Next step should be to add edge weights and then convert. From there I suppose I can start with the nose geometry, then maybe the under belly bump. I have to say, it is a little flustering not knowing what order to do the details; not knowing if there is an order.

[Deleted User]

Looking good so far m8. Definitely doing a better job than I am. Here is my Mark 2 I'm working on.

As you can see I have a low poly cage and posted the SubD too. I'm in the initial stages of figuring this whole modeling thing out. I was doing everything in poly until someone asked me "are you using tab?" to which my response was of course "huh?"

Tab (SubD in LW) opened up a new world. Before I'd try to round edges with the rounder tool, and it was a real pain. But now in SubD it's a pain to get corners, as you yourself noticed. Not to mention my cage was a perfect match for the reference images, as I can control the position of points very precisely, but with SubD it's more of a guessing game and trial and error, move it a bit this way, a bit that way...I dont know seems less precise.

Thanx to JeffrySG though for shedding light on this. It does make sense to mix poly modeling with SubD. Use SubD to get the roundness, and poly modeling to work the details and straight bits and sharp angles.

Jeffry you said freez the SubD and clean up the mesh? What do you mean by that? I.e remove all unnecessary segments by removing points?

I find it terribly hard to work with a frozen mesh. It adds so many more segments. I mean when you start off in poly it's easy, you have like a dozen points lol. But when you freeze it gets a pain to work with all those points. Like if I try deleting a point, then I get holes in my model, which I have to resurface, and then I have to be careful with vertices cause if there are too many SubD wont even work.

It's good to see someone else on the same boat though. I hope we can share our learning experience under9stars.

Keep it up. I'm learning a lot from this discussion

D.M.J.

I notice you're modelling the entire hull, front and back, as the same object. I found that the shapes are sufficiently different for me to model it as two separate objects - the curved "nose" section, and the boxy rear and "undercarriage" section, and just overlap them. The seam along the bottom where the fuselage meets the undercarriage section isn't noticeable (it would just be a pretty sharp corner anyway) and the join between the back of the fuselage and the rear is completely covered by engines, wings, and rear undercarriage sections. But that's because I was happy working that way in Maya.

You've got a good curve on that fuselage, increasing the sharpness of the edges around the cockpit will make it easier to fit the cockpit window. I'll post a wireframe when I get a chance to pull my Viper off a hard drive (old projects never die...).

under9stars

Adalla wrote: »

Looking good so far m8. Definitely doing a better job than I am. Here is my Mark 2 I'm working on.

As you can see I have a low poly cage and posted the SubD too. I'm in the initial stages of figuring this whole modeling thing out. I was doing everything in poly until someone asked me "are you using tab?" to which my response was of course "huh?"

Tab (SubD in LW) opened up a new world. Before I'd try to round edges with the rounder tool, and it was a real pain. But now in SubD it's a pain to get corners, as you yourself noticed. Not to mention my cage was a perfect match for the reference images, as I can control the position of points very precisely, but with SubD it's more of a guessing game and trial and error, move it a bit this way, a bit that way...I dont know seems less precise.

Thanx to JeffrySG though for shedding light on this. It does make sense to mix poly modeling with SubD. Use SubD to get the roundness, and poly modeling to work the details and straight bits and sharp angles.

Jeffry you said freez the SubD and clean up the mesh? What do you mean by that? I.e remove all unnecessary segments by removing points?

I find it terribly hard to work with a frozen mesh. It adds so many more segments. I mean when you start off in poly it's easy, you have like a dozen points lol. But when you freeze it gets a pain to work with all those points. Like if I try deleting a point, then I get holes in my model, which I have to resurface, and then I have to be careful with vertices cause if there are too many SubD wont even work.

It's good to see someone else on the same boat though. I hope we can share our learning experience under9stars.

Keep it up. I'm learning a lot from this discussion

Hi Adalla (Commander),

Thanks for the comments. Perhaps I can be your wingman once we are finished?

I hear you on difficulty of working with many verts and polys once you freeze. I am not sure what app you are in, but you should be able to dictate the level of subD before freezing, and therefore control your poly count after the operation. I plan on freezing with a subD level of 1, and that should give me enough geometry to ensure a smooth mesh. Also, you might give some serious thought on what you can model before freezing, and applying edge weights to the details that are easier to model with your cage and so that detail will survive the sudD to poly freeze process. For instance, that opening on the side of the fuselage that houses some of the internals, might be best created with the cage since it runs along so much area of the mesh, and therefore would include numerous polys and verts that would have to be shaped later, but better and more manageable with the cage. I actually would love to hear from Jeff and David on how and when they tackled that area.

under9stars

D.M.J. wrote: »

I notice you're modelling the entire hull, front and back, as the same object. I found that the shapes are sufficiently different for me to model it as two separate objects - the curved "nose" section, and the boxy rear and "undercarriage" section, and just overlap them. The seam along the bottom where the fuselage meets the undercarriage section isn't noticeable (it would just be a pretty sharp corner anyway) and the join between the back of the fuselage and the rear is completely covered by engines, wings, and rear undercarriage sections. But that's because I was happy working that way in Maya.

You've got a good curve on that fuselage, increasing the sharpness of the edges around the cockpit will make it easier to fit the cockpit window. I'll post a wireframe when I get a chance to pull my Viper off a hard drive (old projects never die...).

Hi David,

You're right, the back boxy section probably could or should be a separate mesh and I did consider that. I did find it helped with the transition from the cockpit area to the back to keep them joined, and I was pretty satisfied with what I came up with. Mostly, I have been studying various real models of the viper to get some guidance on how to break up the parts in sections. I know some models are not very accurate, so I am cautious.

-Jeremy

under9stars

BTW: Is there an official or unofficial registry for call signs? I would like to declare mine as "Postman", if it has not been taken.

Reason: My 93 year old Grandfather, bless his heart, has always worried about my future, retirement and such. He suggested that I get into the postal service field to ensure a retirement for myself. I tried to explain to him my passion and aspiration to break into the VFX industry, but he was unable to understand what I was saying. So, I came up with the idea of following his advice (obviously not literally) and following my passion at the same time.

JeffrySG

Adalla wrote: »

Jeffry you said freez the SubD and clean up the mesh? What do you mean by that? I.e remove all unnecessary segments by removing points?

While, I am the furthest thing from the expert on this, I think typically it would mean for you to freeze your mesh. In LW you would go to the general options area - The O key) and set the subdivision level to where you want it) then select the part you want to freeze and select freeze from the CONSTRUCT > CONVERT menu. After you do this you'll have a full poly mesh. Then you can go in and start to remove loops that you just don't need. And by this I mean areas that are very flat would need less geometry than on areas that have a lot of curves. I like to use BANDGLUE for this, as it will remove an entire loop very quickly and cleanly. If you're not familiar with it you should watch this video. When you're done cleaning up your mesh you should have an object that has enough geometry to make it look smooth where it needs to be, but only as much as needed.

under9stars wrote: »

BTW: Is there an official or unofficial registry for call signs? I would like to declare mine as "Postman", if it has not been taken. Hope that helps!

Reason: My 93 year old Grandfather, bless his heart, has always worried about my future, retirement and such. He suggested that I get into the postal service field to ensure a retirement for myself. I tried to explain to him my passion and aspiration to break into the VFX industry, but he was unable to understand what I was saying. So, I came up with the idea of following his advice (obviously not literally) and following my passion at the same time.

I'm not sure if there is a official registry, but I've never been one to care much anyway. I think your idea would be much better anyway. For my viper I used a call sign for myself and used 1701 for the number just as a poke towards all the Trek fans here.

The viper is looking nice! keep up the good work!

D.M.J.

Indeed, mine is callsign "DMJ" or callsign "Zinc Avenger", depending on which version of textures I use (both names I go by or have gone by), but the registry number is always 2103MJ, my birthday and initials I always try to work in something identifiable (but not immersion-breakingly so) in textures or greebles in case of model or image theft. Not that anyone has or would ever want to steal my models or images

I like to think of it as a form of credits that are harder to remove from the image!

under9stars

Hi All

I have an update and a question.

I haven't post lately because I was in fuselage-revision-hell. I finally came up with something I was happy with. I want to finish this model in a reasonable amount of time, so I am trying to ignore my ocd.

Anyway, I am posting my progress. I decided to do some of the model in polys and whatever else I can in subD. So far, it seems the best solution for the fuselage is polys.

My question or request is if anyone has any good ref images the area where the front of the canopy meets the fuselage.



Thanks, and comments are always welcome.

-J

under9stars

under9stars wrote: »

My question or request is if anyone has any good ref images the area where the front of the canopy meets the fuselage.



Thanks, and comments are always welcome.

-J

Never mind. I looked closer at the refs and saw that the front rim meets the top of the fuselage. If you are looking at the refs from the side, it looks like the canopy angles down lower, but that is because you are seeing the profile of the glass.

under9stars

I am not sure how it happened, but tonight I sat down and started cutting away, using some of the things I have seen over the last year, and I was able to get a nice result. I think what was holding me up was me trying so hard to keep the geometry uniform or a certain way. What I did tonight, I know I had tried before, more or less. But I let go of trying to do things perfectly and just kept cutting away and moving forward, checking my render preview for any render issues—there were none. It was sort of like a puzzle really. I first beveled the edge where it was supposed to be a sharp corner, and then cut that newly created poly so the corner had two polys. I then made cuts to join the corner to the surrounding geometry—there were 3 points that had to be connected. I also, initially, had made a loop slice around the entire "hole". Mostly, I need to get over my issue of trying to do things perfectly the first time and accept that I will always learn more as time passes and after much practice, and that I should not let a need to find out the best way of doing something first hold me back from moving forward and just getting the project done.

It also helped to see some other examples of hard-surface subD models—to see how "messy" subD cages can get. This opened me up.

I would still be interested, as would others, I imagine, to see others approach to a subd curved surface with a sharp cornered shape carved in to it.









Now on to the rest of the model!

ST-One

This looks really good.