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2DFD-120C Phantom III

psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
edited December 2013 in Work in Progress #1
I love Smith Micro's Manga Studio 5. Still more to come.
103901.jpg
Post edited by psCargile on
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  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Interesting, so why Mango Studio? Nice work?

    There are a lots of future fighters being done. Just a thought, the near future will likely see the phasing out of fighters in favor of hypersonic drones.
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    If the F-35 isn't the last manned US fighter, then next one probably will be.

    I bought Manga Studio to do character work, but its vector layers make doing line art real easy.
  • bosunbosun62 Posts: 0Member
    psCargile wrote: »
    If the F-35 isn't the last manned US fighter, then next one probably will be.

    People have been saying that about the latest fighters since the 60s. I'm not holding my breath until the end of manned fighters.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    I'm not criticizing fighters. If not themselves vulnerable to hypersonic drones, they may well live on. People have been talking about the last dogfight for a very long time and they've been wrong but hypersonic drones with space based command and control will revolutionize package delivery. I've just been thinking there's great creative potential in a more likely technology.
  • evil_genius_180evil_genius_1804256 Posts: 11,034Member
    That looks really cool so far. I'm looking forward to the more detailed top/bottom view.
    bosun wrote: »
    People have been saying that about the latest fighters since the 60s. I'm not holding my breath until the end of manned fighters.

    Yeah, but drones have really gotten more and more use the last decade or so. One thing that helps is a worldwide satellite network that allows a pilot in a base on one side of the world to fly a drone strike on the other side of the world. That hasn't been possible until a bit more recently than the '60s. ;) Though, of course, there are other issues, such as signal jamming, which won't affect a pilot inside a plane as much. So, no, I don't expect drones to completely take over fighter warfare, but they probably will take over a lot of it.
  • spacefighterspacefighter2 Posts: 0Member
    drones are now more in use by the us airforce than manned planes. in the last few years they have trained more drone pilots than actual aircraft pilots. mentioning the satellite network this is of course vulnerable to jamming, or if an enemy launched their first strike by taking out the satellites they would cripple the long range capabilities of a nation with a drones only airforce.

    with the image the side view is cool but the plan view awfully angular
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    Latest build.

    F-120a.jpg

    Drones are the future. There are some good TED talks on robotics and military applications on Netflix worth a look.

    But anyway, this project is part of an idea I'm kicking around in a post singularity world of the 2050s, in which this fighter would be around 20 years old at that time. So around the 2030s time frame, there are a lot more drones than manned aircraft, and many of them are intelligent and autonomous (and I've doodled them from time to time as well). I envision a different role for manned fighters, more as combat directors, hence the letter D in the designation. I see hunting packs of at least one manned aircraft overseeing a small squadron of drones, like a hunter and a his dogs--except these dogs are quiet, and more like wolves. Networked together, they function as one large radar array. At least two drones act as defenders to protect the manned fighter. You'll note the Phantom III doesn't carry munitions, it's pure directed energy or cyber warfare. Some of the drones are configured for missile use, if the need to use them arises. (Weapons and their counter-measures are a balancing act and I don't feel like getting into a debate about the pros and cons of my choices. If you've thought of them, so have I.)

    Of the technology listed, most is planned, under development, or already in use. The two exceptions are the Apple iCor cortical implant, and the adaptive stealth. I figured if I already had pliable material for flight controls, I could find another use for it, in which computer controlled elements in the skin react to microwaves, forming angles and facets . I know I'm taking a risk speculating that all this tech will be available in the next decades, but one thing I learned from science fiction, even hard science fiction, is that authors often play it safe. I've decided not to.

    On the issue of hypersonics: Hypersonic flight has only one advantage: speed. Because it's fast, it's hot, and that throws out stealth. Hypersonics is great when you need a quick response to a growing threat, or for doing surveillance and spying over an enemy that can see you, but can't do anything about it. The unfortunate thing about aircraft is that one size doesn't fit all. If the plane is designed to be efficient at supersonic speeds, it does poorly at subsonic speeds--which it needs to fly at to take off and land, hence flaps and other high lift devices. If it's designed for hypersonic speeds, it does poorly at the lower speed regimes. This has do with the physics of airflow and optimal wing shapes, and some gizmo isn't going to fix it. This means hypersonic aircraft, drones or not, are going to need fast take off speeds, which means long runways, and immediate inflight refueling if they are anything like the old SR-71. There will be hypersonic aircraft (an article in Aviation Week was about Darpa talking about a Mach 6 drone SR-72. Like to see that if it happens) but everything is going to need hypersonic flight.

    And yes, the QR codes work.
    103912.jpg
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    F120intakes.jpg

    I'm using Rhino to plan the design. It helps keep much of the jet in the 20 degree Mach angle. Here is some intake work. The S-curve doesn't completely block the compressor face from dastardly radar probing, but it is what it is. Remember to always make your inlet face the same or a little more in area as the compressor face, for equal pressure and all that. Rhino helps finding the area of a circle and a similar rectangle a lot easier than plugging numbers into a spread sheet.
  • evil_genius_180evil_genius_1804256 Posts: 11,034Member
    It's looking good. :thumb:

    Are you eventually going to build this in 3D?
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    Kinda halfway there. Not making any promises, though. :D Some lofting looked like crap, so I have some problems to solve. I have Blender, and the Blender people say its supposed to be faster at creation, but I'm more of a draftsmen than a sculptor, and it takes me too long pushing and prodding vertices and faces to get shapes I don't want that I could have done in five minutes drawing splines and cross-sections, lofts, and Boolean functions. Blender renders pretty though. (And I'm still pissed at Rhino for murdering my Phoenix inspired ENT era fighter.)

    Might make one for X-Plane 10. Been slowing working on a simple single engine jet to evolve into one my other drones. X-Plane's flight characteristics are more realistic than Flight Sim, and their Planemaker is far easier to use--if you know what you're doing.

    Here are some post-Singularity intelligent machine designed intelligent drones. They make the Phantom III look like the Phantom I.

    1002598_694718040541147_1228466669_n.jpg
  • Knight26Knight26192 Posts: 838Member
    Most real 6th gen concepts are mixed manned unmanned aircraft. Where a piloted craft flies with 2 or more unmanned versions fo the same aircraft.

    Design wise, your nose is too small to house any kind of useful radar, might want to beef that up.
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    The radar is not in the nose. It's the skin. That idea came from an Aviation Week and Space Technology article a few years ago.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    I like what I see. I did some freeware scenery for MS Flight Simulator and Prepar3d and intend to get back to flight simulators. I was just getting to frustrated with Lockheed SDK. They have a sadly limited view of their own product. Sooner or later, I need to drop the money on the full Autodesk licenses and try to make some money at this. That's kind of a gamble. I'll be interested in anything you have to share as your work progresses.
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    This isn't the current flight model, but it's close. Haven't worked on it since October.

    [video=youtube_share;I__VvKPQJow]
  • CaptainjerkyCaptainjerky62 Posts: 0Member
    The radome isn't a big deal any more. Look at the nose of an F-15; it's huge because of that massive radar dish that was required. The F-22 and F-35's radar is a phased array: hundreds or thousands of electronically steerable elements each about as big as your pinky finger. Nose cross section on the F-22 is pretty small as a result, and it's not a stretch to imagine banks of those little elements placed all over the fuselage of a fighter for 360 degree coverage.
    My concern with unmanned craft is the signal intercept and jamming. According to the news, Al Queda supposedly was able to intercept drone signals on occasion and evac a site under attack. Also, if you interrupt the datalink, the mission is over. Whether the drone orbits or follows a preplanned GPS route to home base, the enemy wasn't attacked and the op was a failure. I still like the concept of manned fighters for those among other reasons.
    I like your design; it makes me think of a cross between the YF-23 and some of Boeing's drone concepts. My only thought is that with those sideways-facing inlets you might have problems pulling in air at high speed angles of attack. You've got the right idea with masking the fans as much as possible, though!
    Is there a story behind this design, or just something you had rolling around in your noggin and had to get out? :-)
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    Is there a story behind this design, or just something you had rolling around in your noggin and had to get out? :-) .

    *

    It's in a story if I ever get back to it.* Other than that, I have a strong interest in where aircraft design is going and what technologies are going to be incorporated into them. As I've mentioned, most of the technologies I have attributed I've either read articles about, or found during research. I'm putting them all together with no real idea which ones will work and which ones will not. I'm on the fence about the engines (compessor and turbines mounted to a drum instead of a shaft, leaving the core empty--seems well suited for turbofan than turbojets), and think that might not play out, haven't heard much about it since I discovered it many years ago. I see a deficit in the science fiction community for well thought out hard science fiction; and advancements everyone ignores is hull and skin technological. Part of that is exposure. Composites aren't a household word. If the laminate structure of composites allows designers to include honeycomb core, and leading edge anti-ice elements (as with the Global Hawk), then other flat devices can be embeded as well, forming one single component. Maintenance nightmare? Of course. But the plight of maintenainers has never stopped the Air Force.

    *

    Flexible electronics already exist. When flexible aircraft structures arrive it's going to change aircraft design. That's what I'm doing; pondering the posibility of flexible composites and how that changes the design. By that I mean composites that flex and change form on command. Graphite composites are pretty flexible as is.

    *
    My concern with unmanned craft is the signal intercept and jamming. According to the news, Al Queda supposedly was able to intercept drone signals on occasion and evac a site under attack. Also, if you interrupt the datalink, the mission is over. Whether the drone orbits or follows a preplanned GPS route to home base, the enemy wasn't attacked and the op was a failure.

    *

    Well aware. The solution to that is full autonomy. If you and I don't like the dependency current drones rely on for mission success, you know the brass doesn't like it either. Drones are going to be made smarter and more independent, and they will malfunction, and they will kill people they aren't supposed to kill, but they are coming regardless, if not by the US, then by someone else.

    *

    I hate the wireless dependency of GPS, that's why I'm using spatial contextual awareness; knowing where you start from, knowing your speed and direction, and analyzing terrain features and landmarks.

    *
    . . . cross between the YF-23 and some of Boeing's drone concepts.

    Yes, the YF-23 is an inspiration. It screams "FUTURE!" in a way the F-22 doesn't.

    *
    My only thought is that with those sideways-facing inlets you might have problems pulling in air at high speed angles of attack.

    *

    It may. I was more concerned with Mach angle and shockwave generation than high AOA maneuvers. It's a design compromise. It could be moved back and reconfigured. My duct could be shorter, but it would be less serpentine and interfere with main gear placement.

    *
  • bosunbosun62 Posts: 0Member
    psCargile wrote: »
    * Maintenance nightmare? Of course. But the plight of maintenainers has never stopped the Air Force.
    *

    Truth. I was a C-130 crew chief for 14 years. Eventually you can learn to take pride in carrying on in spite of it all. There can be a lot of job satisfaction in finding a broken bird and making it fly, but don't expect any recognition. The only time anyone pays attention to maintainers is when things have gone wrong.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Veteran roll-call. I was maintainer on the C-141 and KC-10 before become a C-5 Flight Engineer. 21yrs and retired. As book ends to the Air Force I had experience with the 637 class nuclear submarines Pintado, Cavalla and DSRVs Mystic and Avalon. I was in Russia for the Russian mini submarine rescue in, I think, 2007. Yes, I have a very improvable biography. Universally, maintainers have a tough lot. The answer to every problem is do more with less. Usually ever fewer people.
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    Former pointy head on F-15s, flight controls and instrumentation. Got heaps of respect for crew chiefs, the hardest working people in the AF.

    Before I get too far I wanted to check where the mean aerodynamic chord would most likely be to determine were the center of lift will be, and hence where the center of gravity could be--all important for an X-Plane model.

    F-120+MAC.jpg

    I'm not entirely certain how to find the MAC for a planform like this and a time consuming internet search hasn't lead me to the answer I want. I tried three different methods and they all put me in the same ball park.

    Since my engine is based on the scale of the F119-PW-100, about half of it is the augmentor, so I can either move the engines back, or move the nozzles forward, which I think is the better idea.

    Here's a influential slideshow on Lockheed's FATE Program.
  • MaxxRushMaxxRush180 Posts: 168Member
    Former USAF weapons loader on F-111 D (Cannon AFB, NM) and F models (RAF Lakenheath, UK). Maintenance for us wasn't pretty either, especially when a maintenance occifer asks you to pull a weapons bay door from one A/C and put it on another. Then, after the flight, put it back. They didn't want to hear that you *can't* put it back where it came from because you have to trim the door to fit the new A/C, which makes the gaps too large (according to the tech manual) if replaced on the original plane. Never mind that it's a four-hour job.

    Of course, General Dynamics wasn't making new doors anymore (not in 1990 anyway)...

    And let's not even mention the several million $$ worth of weapons system computers we burned up because the same occifer didn't believe us when we told him that the C-Shopper's computers were kicking out too much voltage to the weapons comps (24VDC tested vs. 5VDC required). We R-squared half a dozen CPUs and RPUs before someone finally believed us.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Interesting slide show, what a great resource for your work here. I know it's a weak comparison but the wright flyer was controlled by wing warping. It feels like the technology coming around to original solutions. Some of those designs look like WWII German design as well.
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    And composite graphite plies are like plastic cloth before they are cooked in the autoclave.
    And let's not even mention the several million $$ worth of weapons system computers we burned up because the same occifer didn't believe us when we told him that the C-Shopper's computers were kicking out too much voltage to the weapons comps (24VDC tested vs. 5VDC required). We R-squared half a dozen CPUs and RPUs before someone finally believed us.

    I know the feeling. We had an inlet controller that kept frying out. We would pour water out of the bad ones; the crew chiefs would have to crack open the ground air conditioner door to vent water prior to flight--not a normal procedure. After fighting with Enviro shop, we finally convinced our flight chief that ECS was killing our air inlet controllers, and he made them tear that jet apart until they found the problem. They discovered the avionics cooling sensor was mistakenly replaced with a cabin air sensor as the sensors looked the same, causing the ECS duct over our part to condense and drip about a cup of water into it. Instant INLET light after takeoff.
  • SchimpfySchimpfy396 Posts: 1,632Member
    How many maintainers are there around here? Seems we're coming out of the woodwork. Weapons loader here on B-1s with a bit of F-16 experience.

    OT, I like where you're going with this design. It's got pros and cons, but far better to make a master of one (or two) trade(s) than a jack-of-all-trades, but master-of-none. Very interested to see where this goes.
  • SchimpfySchimpfy396 Posts: 1,632Member
    psCargile wrote: »
    Since my engine is based on the scale of the F119-PW-100, about half of it is the augmentor, so I can either move the engines back, or move the nozzles forward, which I think is the better idea.[/URL]

    So, do you prefer to have an augmentor over an afterburner?
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    I was under the impression the augmentor was a component (the duct) of the afterburner system, and they are pretty much used synonymously. I've seen it called out as such on a search of the F100-PW-220 engine. See http://www.allstar.fiu.edu/aero/P&WEngines02.html, and http://zamandayolculuk.com/cetinbal/PU/SF16JetMotResim1.png

    Don't have any updates because I've been beating myself up over the planform's aerodynamic center of lift, totally forgetting the positive effects the chines would have (see the SR-71 flight manual, section 6 for more info), so I'll keep the wings as is, but I do want to change the inlets. I have the weekend off (work two, off one) so I'll have some time to work on that.
  • SchimpfySchimpfy396 Posts: 1,632Member
    They're actually two completely different components although both work on the same principle. The most obvious difference is in the flame. Afterburners have rings visible in the exhaust flame while augmentors don't. That's the simple explanation I got from an jet troop.
  • bagera4000bagera4000251 Posts: 1,516Member
    look cool
  • psCargilepsCargile417 Posts: 620Member
    newf120a.jpg

    Here is the new Rhino template.

    Included in the attachments are scanned and ripped Aviation Week and Space Technology articles that discuss the radar and energy weapons tech I'm using.

    Concerning afterburners and augmentors: They are the same. My aerospace dictionary states as such, and my technically detailed jet aircraft books that cover propulsion use the two terms interchangeable between the body of text, captions and call-outs. The "rings of fire" are also called shock diamonds, or Mach discs, and are created by pressure differences between the low pressure supersonic exhaust and the high pressure ambient air, no matter what the exhaust is or what method creates it. Read about it at Aerospaceweb.com
    .

    I have heard the variable area nozzles called augmentors as well by crew chiefs and engine troops. When the nozzles close and converge the exhaust, they do augment it to higher velocities without the use of afterburner. So technically they too are augmentors.
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