How do I model Galaxy, Sovereign, Intrepid Secondary Hulls?

Trekologist

Hello All,

I have been modeling in 3d for a few years now, and have created several models of 22nd ships. To date, I have only learned how to model cylindrical secondary hulls, and have not had much success using box modeling or other techniques to model non-cylindrical secondary hulls.

What are some good techniques that are used to model secondary hulls? Do you use the box modeling technique?

Are there any tutorials out there that teach how to model complex non-cylindrical secondary hulls?

I would like to model a secondary hull like the one seen on the sovereign or intrepid.

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance for the help!

I am using 3d studio max.
Trekologist :devil:

IRML

you've asked one of those questions that doesn't have a specific answer

those style ships are stuff you tend to model when you have an understanding of sub-ds, I don't know of any specific tutorial that deals with a trek ship like that, but look at any sort of sub-d tutorial and give it a go

I would actually say the best way to learn how to model a complex hull is to try it yourself once you know the basics of sub-ds, there will be a lot of trial and error but you will definately learn as you go

Trekologist

Thanks for the reference to Sub-D materials. I have some experience w/ rendering... my work can be viewed here:
http://www.scifi-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?76039-Trekologist-s-Trek-WIP-s&highlight=Trekologist

So far, I have only been able to manipulate cylindrical (constitution style hulls). Very much open to suggestions..., but will look into sub 's.

IRML wrote: »

you've asked one of those questions that doesn't have a specific answer

those style ships are stuff you tend to model when you have an understanding of sub-ds, I don't know of any specific tutorial that deals with a trek ship like that, but look at any sort of sub-d tutorial and give it a go

I would actually say the best way to learn how to model a complex hull is to try it yourself once you know the basics of sub-ds, there will be a lot of trial and error but you will definately learn as you go

Melak

cylinders are often still a good starting point for those sort of hulls, the intrepid especially. It's not too far off, and if you are just starting out with subDs, it might help you get smoother curves than building everything from scratch.

The tricky parts tend to be where the hull blends into other parts, like the saucer.

Trekologist

You are correct about the cylinders... I have been able to do quite a bit with them to get the shapes I need. The tricky part has getting them to bend and merge seamlessly with other blended parts of the ship. I am attempting to make a blended primary/secondary hull design... and I feel that i've reached my limits for how I can manipulate cylinders. How did you learn sub-d? If you come across or know of any good tutorials, let me know.

Thanks again for the advice!

Melak wrote: »

cylinders are often still a good starting point for those sort of hulls, the intrepid especially. It's not too far off, and if you are just starting out with subDs, it might help you get smoother curves than building everything from scratch.

The tricky parts tend to be where the hull blends into other parts, like the saucer.

omnipotent

personally i have a good understanding of Sub division modeling and i have put it to good use latly.

what i do to start an organic object is i start with a plane and then from that plane i edge extrude the top down contors and the side view ones after that i just go with the flow bridging edges adding geom/removing geom as i need until i get what i want.

also there isnt really a set way of tackling an organic wire frames and its more about trial and error and making it work rather then having a set way to follow.

also a pointer that may help check out peoples wireframe renders/pics of their hulls/organic shapes and learn from them.

Trekologist

omnipotent, thx for the reply! How did you learn / practice sub-d modeling? I am going to practice this technique with a few basic models. I think i understand the concept, just trying to figure out the basic shape I should use to get the sovereign's secondary hull. Would you start from a sphere, spline, plane, or box?

omnipotent wrote: »

personally i have a good understanding of Sub division modeling and i have put it to good use latly.

what i do to start an organic object is i start with a plane and then from that plane i edge extrude the top down contors and the side view ones after that i just go with the flow bridging edges adding geom/removing geom as i need until i get what i want.

also there isnt really a set way of tackling an organic wire frames and its more about trial and error and making it work rather then having a set way to follow.

also a pointer that may help check out peoples wireframe renders/pics of their hulls/organic shapes and learn from them.

omnipotent

Trekologist wrote: »

omnipotent, thx for the reply! How did you learn / practice sub-d modeling? I am going to practice this technique with a few basic models. I think i understand the concept, just trying to figure out the basic shape I should use to get the sovereign's secondary hull. Would you start from a sphere, spline, plane, or box?

well as i use MODO 401 organic and sub-d modeling is what it does best and the very first tutorial i did to get familiar with modo was a bughatti veyron tute and it went into subd quite fast so i got familiar with it right from the start, as for practise i make organic hardsurface models like characters cars bikes you name it anything that has an organic shape that i like.
(my latest organic/sub-d model can be seen as my avatar btw)

and personally i start all my organic shapes with a plane then work out the contours from front side and top by edge extruding after i have those i fill in the holes with more geometry and move verts and edges as i need to make the shape.

also and i think you know this already. tackling organics and pretty much anything is a hellova lot simpler if you only make HALF the object then mirror it when you want to join everything up this saves a shedlad of time as you can focus all your attention on one half as the details will be translated over to the other half when you mirror.

anyway i recomend you just jump into it and experiment trust me there isnt a definitive way of doing it its all about finding out how you can MAKE it work for you, ive seen many people model in tutes live etc and everyone allways seems to do stuff their way rather then THE way.

/Rant

Jenny

I'm a LightWave user, not a 3DS user. But I imagine my experience will hold true for whatever software package you use. I went to Amazon, did a search for the product ("LightWave") in the books category, and looked through the results. I've ended up buying at least half a dozen books on various aspects of LightWave so far, and the end is not in sight.

Each tutorial I work through, though, not only do I think about what the tutorial is teaching me, I also think about how I can apply that to my starship models. When I finish the tutorial from the book, I go work on some aspect of my starship I think can benefit from what I've just learned. That helps the lesson really stick in my mind.

Good luck on learning to model more curvaceous starships!

Trekologist

Good advice! I think some of the tutorials that I see will help me to learn and learn quickly... I have books as well that teach how to do more advanced modeling. I am definitely looking to make some curvaceous starships!!! Thanks again,

Walkyrje wrote: »

I'm a LightWave user, not a 3DS user. But I imagine my experience will hold true for whatever software package you use. I went to Amazon, did a search for the product ("LightWave") in the books category, and looked through the results. I've ended up buying at least half a dozen books on various aspects of LightWave so far, and the end is not in sight.

Each tutorial I work through, though, not only do I think about what the tutorial is teaching me, I also think about how I can apply that to my starship models. When I finish the tutorial from the book, I go work on some aspect of my starship I think can benefit from what I've just learned. That helps the lesson really stick in my mind.

Good luck on learning to model more curvaceous starships!

Trekologist

Nice avatar btw! I haven't used MODO yet... my main software tool is 3d studio max. Looking at a tutorial now that teaches how to do sub-d in max. what other programs do you use? Thanks again,

omnipotent wrote: »

well as i use MODO 401 organic and sub-d modeling is what it does best and the very first tutorial i did to get familiar with modo was a bughatti veyron tute and it went into subd quite fast so i got familiar with it right from the start, as for practise i make organic hardsurface models like characters cars bikes you name it anything that has an organic shape that i like.
(my latest organic/sub-d model can be seen as my avatar btw)

and personally i start all my organic shapes with a plane then work out the contours from front side and top by edge extruding after i have those i fill in the holes with more geometry and move verts and edges as i need to make the shape.

also and i think you know this already. tackling organics and pretty much anything is a hellova lot simpler if you only make HALF the object then mirror it when you want to join everything up this saves a shedlad of time as you can focus all your attention on one half as the details will be translated over to the other half when you mirror.

anyway i recomend you just jump into it and experiment trust me there isnt a definitive way of doing it its all about finding out how you can MAKE it work for you, ive seen many people model in tutes live etc and everyone allways seems to do stuff their way rather then THE way.

/Rant

Melak

I usually start with planes too, I find distorting primiteves into what I want rarely works. exceptions are perfectly round or oval saucers.

I once tried to model the sovereign, I didn't get a lot done, and the base mesh is not very nice, but maybe it can give you some ideas where to start:

IRML

dunno why you gave up on that, it looks alright to me

Schimpfy

IRML wrote: »

dunno why you gave up on that, it looks alright to me

Because he's comparing it to yours. Seriously, though. It looks like a good start Melak. :thumb:

Right now I'm just learning sub-d modeling and I find, for me at least, that it's been the most challenging aspect so far. What others have said is 100% true about not finding a tutorial specifically set up for what you're asking, however, learning the basics and following it up with trial and error will yield great rewards.

Dmitri

Just a quick resource on subdivisional modeling: Link
Well actually, it's quite a long resource- but it's very good. It's in 3dsMax, but any modern program can do the same things demonstrated.
Cheers!

Trekologist

This is a great start to the sovereign... I think working with planes is a good approach. I have been trying to take and mold a secondary hull from primitives and there are a lot of vortices to move. I will post some of my progress here... trying to design a new Enterprise F for the contest at star trek online Here: http://startrekonline.com/enterprise/

Melak wrote: »

I usually start with planes too, I find distorting primiteves into what I want rarely works. exceptions are perfectly round or oval saucers.

I once tried to model the sovereign, I didn't get a lot done, and the base mesh is not very nice, but maybe it can give you some ideas where to start:

Trekologist

PERFECT! :-D I am using 3d studio max, and this tutorial is EXACTLY what I need! :thumb:

Dmitri wrote: »

Just a quick resource on subdivisional modeling: Link
Well actually, it's quite a long resource- but it's very good. It's in 3dsMax, but any modern program can do the same things demonstrated.
Cheers!

Starship

IRML wrote: »

...I don't know of any specific tutorial that deals with a trek ship like that, but look at any sort of sub-d tutorial and give it a go...

A long time ago (2001), my good friend Nico Weigand (where are you now old buddy?) started a thread here... Modeling the Enterprise-D! I have that thread saved in my hd, and the wires say much more than a million of words. Get it here: http://www.4shared.com/file/t5aNXFT1/Nico.html
Later, he put online a tutorial, but his page itA’s down for years... Anyway, I have a copy in pdf, which you can download here: http://www.4shared.com/document/oqgy-S5i/Galaxy_spline_cage.html. Just do a good use, and at least do a mention to Nico in your wips. He was one of the most generous mens that one day was a member here.

Yaric

Starship wrote: »

A long time ago (2001), my good friend Nico Weigand (where are you now old buddy?) started a thread here... Modeling the Enterprise-D! I have that thread saved in my hd, and the wires say much more than a million of words. Get it here: http://www.4shared.com/file/t5aNXFT1/Nico.html
Later, he put online a tutorial, but his page itA’s down for years... Anyway, I have a copy in pdf, which you can download here: http://www.4shared.com/document/oqgy-S5i/Galaxy_spline_cage.html. Just do a good use, and at least do a mention to Nico in your wips. He was one of the most generous mens that one day was a member here.

Suppose something bad happened to him? I remember seeing him around alot and his work was amazing. So glad I came across your post here...

Anyways, seems weird someone with his talent and drive to document everything like he apparently did would just up and disappear.

Starship

Yaric wrote: »

Suppose something bad happened to him? I remember seeing him around alot and his work was amazing. So glad I came across your post here...

Anyways, seems weird someone with his talent and drive to document everything like he apparently did would just up and disappear.

Until that age, nothing bad happened.
He did a post saying that due to Real Life works, he couldnA’t continue with his hobby. This is the reason we never heared news about him, at least until now.

Dannage

Thanks to everyone who posted, included the question raiser Trekologist. I have also reached the limits of my let's-be-kind-and-call-them-skills starting with boxes and distorting them to shape. I will endeavour to learn this fine art of Sub-D, which I've known about but never really learned to tackle.

Melak

Dannage wrote: »

Thanks to everyone who posted, included the question raiser Trekologist. I have also reached the limits of my let's-be-kind-and-call-them-skills starting with boxes and distorting them to shape. I will endeavour to learn this fine art of Sub-D, which I've known about but never really learned to tackle.

You're in for a world of hurt, but great rewards await you

lennier1

My advice: Consider using a Nova class to experiment first. It's easier to handle and a good starting point for more complex shapes.

MadKoiFish

Subd is subd no matter the app. Id work at learning edge loops to control smoothness, and set smoothing groups to control the loops so flat consistent areas are not so dense or even can be cleaned after collapsing the mesh down. This comes in handy with large expansive areas of the mesh dump a different material on it if it is a flat surface then you can delete all of that and cap it.

Box modeling, I think this is a bit of a misnomer. For me it refers to using a simple object to create a shape from. Weather that be a sphere box plane or any non spine form. Subd for me is just an extension of box modeling. I call all of my work box modeling since max since 2.5 has never done squat with a spline in a guessable or predictable manner. Always cages off to some XYZ direction with no manner to which is chooses. Lots of rage over the years path extruding railing and other forms. RAGE just thinking about it hahaha.

Here are some shapes showing how you can use smoothing groups or materials to isolate the smoothing.


this shows the original box subd box and one with smoothing set. Note how the wires push to the corners.

this is the same set of objects showing the physical wires.

This one shows the last mesh cleaned up. Note how all the un needed edges are gone.

This is another example.


Random ship wires, fairly big but all under 200k Some are subd some are collapsed, and other bits might just be plainly box modeled.

This shows optimizing of a once subd mesh that was collapsed into a editable poly.


Base mesh before subd is applied. This shows the loops that tighten up the curves without introducing a tonne of iterations to a mesh.


This mesh as a collection of raw subd objects collapsed subd objects and basic boxmodeled objects. Though most are open and not fully enclosed (no reason to have polies inside of other objects.


another that is a mess of different stages of modeling,

NicoW

Starship wrote: »

Until that age, nothing bad happened.
He did a post saying that due to Real Life works, he couldnA’t continue with his hobby. This is the reason we never heared news about him, at least until now.

*sniff*
I'm flattered.. after all these years.
:thumb:

But yeah, good old Nico is still kicking, just not in 3D. Funny thing is that I was searching for my old avatar picture as a log in for my Win7.. you might remember the girl which boosted her decoltee and I tattooed my logo onto her.. that's how I found this. Small world.. no luck so far though on the pic

Anyway.. won't come back to 3D for at least another 5 years, although it's itching. But that's life, you can't always choose what you get :cool:

Also.. if anyone who has got my old meshes and wants to share them.. feel free to do so. I consider them public domain by now.
If I ever find the time I'll chase them up - still got them on some hdd's here around - and make them available. Can't promise it though..

All the best.
Nico

Starship

NicoW wrote: »

*sniff*
I'm flattered.. after all these years.
:thumb:

But yeah, good old Nico is still kicking, just not in 3D. Funny thing is that I was searching for my old avatar picture as a log in for my Win7.. you might remember the girl which boosted her decoltee and I tattooed my logo onto her.. that's how I found this. Small world.. no luck so far though on the pic

Anyway.. won't come back to 3D for at least another 5 years, although it's itching. But that's life, you can't always choose what you get :cool:

Also.. if anyone who has got my old meshes and wants to share them.. feel free to do so. I consider them public domain by now.
If I ever find the time I'll chase them up - still got them on some hdd's here around - and make them available. Can't promise it though..

All the best.
Nico

Hi old beam! So youA’re still alive after all these years? ItA’s good to know youA’re well and kicking!
Still involved with phisics? How the experiences are going?
Kinddest regards,
Cassio

Polaris 004

MadKoiFish, that was a really good graphic explanation of what is needed to get those later hulls modeled. It was really good of you to take the time to do that. It takes hours and hours of trial and error to learn that stuff if you are a total noob and don't know the first thing about modeling. You should make a quick noob tutorial from that post for future seekers.

I wish I had found a post like that when I had started...

japetus

madkoi, nice post there. SubDs are the bee knees. I wish there was like an "autoclean" button or something to get rid of all the unused edges. Seems like it's be pretty simple based on the direction of the face normals to one another. I know I'll find the magic button as soon as I post this.

IRML

japetus wrote: »

madkoi, nice post there. SubDs are the bee knees. I wish there was like an "autoclean" button or something to get rid of all the unused edges. Seems like it's be pretty simple based on the direction of the face normals to one another. I know I'll find the magic button as soon as I post this.

what program are you using? in lightwave there's a tool called band glue that does this sort of thing, surely there's an equivalent tool in other apps

japetus

i use 3ds max 2011

count23

I dont know if Max11 has the same functions, but to remove extraneous edges and the like in Maya 2011 (which is apparently practically identical these days), I use combine to join two objects and then merge to remove any duplicate edges or verticies.