3dsMAX 8: Panel lines on curved surfaces?

[Deleted User]

For example, this ship:

http://www.destabiliser.com/eveships/albums/gallente/cruisers/gallentethorax.jpg

I've done most of my modeling work in AutoCAD, but I think I've reached the end of that program's usefulness with my latest projects. So looks like it's finally time to make the switch over to 3dsmax for more than just rendering. But I'm completely lost on finding a good way to do this. Could someone explain how, considering two factors:

1) It must work at high resolution/zoom levels with no segmentation. So no approximating the curved surfaces as a series of flat ones, I want actual curves.

2) Please tell me there's a way to do it without manual editing of slice cuts and stuff. By point #1, this is going to be very high poly, so I don't look forward to the idea of doing it one segment at a time, for thousands of segments.

[Deleted User]

Based on your requirements I would suggest looking into the Meshsmooth (a.k.a. subdivision modeling) and NURBS modeling schemes. Both are capable of creating high poly meshes and using control points to perform gross manipulations of a derived mesh. If you want to use actual curves to model in in 3ds Max you will have to use splines, patches and NURBS CV.

It might be helpful if you understand that nearly everything ends up as a series of approximated flat surfaces in 3D though. Even if it happens to be sub pixel micropolygons generated at render time.

Then again, it might not.

[Deleted User]

Ndege wrote: »

Based on your requirements I would suggest looking into the Meshsmooth (a.k.a. subdivision modeling) and NURBS modeling schemes. Both are capable of creating high poly meshes and using control points to perform gross manipulations of a derived mesh. If you want to use actual curves to model in in 3ds Max you will have to use splines, patches and NURBS CV.

I tried looking into meshsmooth... I can easily get the base shape, but my problem is getting the panel lines cut into it correctly. How do I do them, and at what point? Before smoothing the rough box model? Afterwards (with booleans/shapemerge, creating the problem of incredibly difficult to work with polygon counts... it's going to be a pain selecting 100000 sides on a curve to extrude it, or whatever)?

It might be helpful if you understand that nearly everything ends up as a series of approximated flat surfaces in 3D though. Even if it happens to be sub pixel micropolygons generated at render time.

Yeah, I know that part. The comment about poly count was just that I want to build high-poly models for high-resolution still images. It's just something to keep in mind, I need a technique that works effectively at the extremely high poly counts needed to keep the illusion of perfect curves even under those conditions. For example, manual cut/extrude might work fine for a lower-poly game model, but for my purposes it wouldn't be practical.

[Deleted User]

Gotcha on the poly count thing.

For subdivisions the key is to do the cuts at the last possible moment in the modeling process so you don't have to be selecting hundreds of thousands of polys. Once you are happy with the over all look at the lowest sub division level possible, then I would go in and do the cuts. You don't want to be going back to adjust basic hull shape when you have added thousands of panel details.

The thing I like about meshsmooth is that you can use basic poly tools and scripts (cs tools!) on the editable poly so you can do things like loop and edge selects. I would (if I could) stick with making panels with the poly tools. Extrude, chamfer and cuts. If you set up nice loops in your mesh topography you don't have to manually select thousands of edges, you just select one and the tools will select the rest.

You can also do tricks like setting smoothing groups or material IDs and selecting by those options.

chrono

Peregrine wrote: »

1) It must work at high resolution/zoom levels with no segmentation. So no approximating the curved surfaces as a series of flat ones, I want actual curves.

What you want is a NURBS modeling program Rhino, Maya, and others(MoI, 3D Modeling for Designers and Artists is cad based and can export as obj.). The other alternative is to make skillful usage of polygonal LOD's. You don't want to use subd, unless it's for detailed organics then you want to use it for polygonal reduce and etc.

Also I suggest that you read up on SUBD and it's workflow as I really think that you have the wrong concept about it. There are tutorials here about the subject.

However, don't even think that NURBS will be your 'perfect' answer either! NURBS are just like polygons when they tax your system. Real time & at render time. Expect to use separate parts for close-up scenes as well.

[Deleted User]

chrono wrote: »

What you want is a NURBS modeling program Rhino, Maya, and others(MoI, 3D Modeling for Designers and Artists is cad based and can export as obj.).

Hm, I think I worded that quoted part really badly. I don't mean literally extact curves, just close enough to hold up at high resolution/zoom. For example, a simple "cut, select faces, extrude" method is easy with 8 segments in your curve. But increase the poly count on the base shape to 800, and it's suddenly a nightmare to deal with.

So that's what I'm looking for, which tool or method am I missing here. From what I've looked at on my own:

1) I can get the base hull shape just fine. Low poly model + mesh smooth = exactly what I want. Same with purely mechanical details. If it's 100% organic or 100% mechanical I at least know where to begin, the problem I'm having is blending the two without really awkward methods.

2) Manual cut (with the editable mesh tool), extruding faces, etc, works in theory, but wouldn't be even remotely practical for what I have in mind. It works well for defining the base shape before smoothing it, but once the poly count gets too high it's just too awkward to work with.

3) Boolean/shapemerge/etc sound like what I'm looking for, but how do I work with the finished result? Sure, I can shapemerge the cut into the base hull, but then how do I turn that cut into a 3d panel line? Is there a selection tool I'm missing? Because the only way I can see to even select the stuff is doing it face by face along the edge of the plate (where you need precise selection to avoid the adjacent plate).

You don't want to use subd, unless it's for detailed organics then you want to use it for polygonal reduce and etc.

I don't? Even when the basic shape of the ship is pretty much organic?

Also I suggest that you read up on SUBD and it's workflow as I really think that you have the wrong concept about it. There are tutorials here about the subject.

Can you give me a quick explanation of the terms, or point me in the right direction? I think coming from different software/tutorials/etc, we might be thinking of two different things. Is 3dsmax's meshsmooth the same thing as SUBD? Or is SUBD a NURBS equivalent where you're working with exact surfaces/solids the entire time?

However, don't even think that NURBS will be your 'perfect' answer either! NURBS are just like polygons when they tax your system. Real time & at render time. Expect to use separate parts for close-up scenes as well.

Fortunately system requirements aren't my biggest concern... I don't really do any animation or deal with tight deadlines, so I can afford long render times if it gets me the quality I want. Or are NURBS surfaces in 3dsmax considerably more demanding than polygonal ones for the same quality results?

Zardoz

Instead of extrude the faces, extrude the EDGES of the panels in to the mesh. It looks good and is more easy. And for creating any borders of your panels, only need to put a edges along these line. See my Yorktown images to see how looks it. It have grid lines in curved surfaces.

[Deleted User]

Zardoz wrote: »

Instead of extrude the faces, extrude the EDGES of the panels in to the mesh. It looks good and is more easy. And for creating any borders of your panels, only need to put a edges along these line. See my Yorktown images to see how looks it. It have grid lines in curved surfaces.

I really have no idea what you mean here... I selected the edge I wanted to use, extruded into the surface, and it did nothing. It made a T shape with a face going back into the surface, but it didn't make any visible change on the outside. Or do you mean cutting two parallel lines instead of a single line, and then extruding the narrow strip between them? That would work, if only I could solve the selection problem below...

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So I've got it to this point (see attachment). I can make the base hull shape just fine. I can draw panel lines and shapemerge them into the hull. I can even extrude them and make 3d plates. But what I can't do is select an entire plate at once. See how with the mesh density I have in mind, picking edges and/or faces one at a time is way too time consuming? And that's just one single plate, repeating the whole process over the entire ship would be a nightmare. There has to be an easier way...

I tried converting to editable poly and using the edge loop selection tool, but that doesn't work. It just goes one edge down the loop and stops, leaving me with two selected instead of one. Repeating it does nothing.

Is there no tool that does what I want? Is the only solution cutting all the plate lines before applying the meshsmooth, and hoping I don't have smoothing issues with intersecting surfaces, etc?