Greetings!

Welcome to Scifi-Meshes.com! Click one of these buttons to join in on the fun.

3DSovereign Suggestions?

12357

Posts

  • BlueNeumannBlueNeumann357 Posts: 1,104Member
    It kind of looks like someone cut part of the saucer out. Those things... I guess they worked on Voyager but I don't like them. I guess they make sense, but... maybe if they fit in more with the design. Do you remember those two triangles under the original Enterprise saucer? Maybe if you integrated the palettes like that.
  • SaquistSaquist1 Posts: 0Member
    Lonewriter wrote: »
    I had max on my old pc but could not get it to install on my new pc but I never could get the hang of using it. I now use Lightwave only. Saquist, I'm impressed with your treknology, if I ever get around to writing my Nova class technical manual, I know who to consult.

    That would be interesting breaking down the ancestral Defiant's abilities. You'd have to start with an internal layout but at least we know it's top speed is warp 8. Augmentation of the warp engines is clearly possible as Equinox showed but the Rhode Island Varriant should be far more temporally dynamic at warp.
    jrhottel wrote: »
    Attachment not found. The sensor insets on the outside are good. Those under the bow not so much. I'm trying to think of a more pleasing shape.
    It kind of looks like someone cut part of the saucer out. Those things... I guess they worked on Voyager but I don't like them. I guess they make sense, but... maybe if they fit in more with the design. Do you remember those two triangles under the original Enterprise saucer? Maybe if you integrated the palettes like that.


    The funny part is that I liked it as soon as I saw it. I knew exactly what they were for. Then I saw Blue's post and realized to most this wouldn't come off as pleasing to most people. This will be a hard decision on your part JR. Perhaps a different shape who knows but it's hard for me not to like this. It's intricate, purposeful, familar and different. in color it may have a different effect.

    I think you've put it in unique location that doesn't overlap with the Deflector's sensor cluster (forward). Voyager has all it's largest arrays on top. I like the bottom because most often ships orbit bottom down. Sovereign has enough surface area for at least one large array on both ventral and dorsal sides.
  • lennier1lennier1516 Posts: 1,185Member
    Interesting. I would have turned the bottom of that "inverted trench" into a row of sensor clusters, kinda like this old game model: http://bridgecommander.filefront.com/file/RE_Theseus_Class_Pack;107231
  • LonewriterLonewriter233 Posts: 1,067Member
    I would keep these two and get rid of the rest but that's just my opinion.
    103962.jpg
  • prisoner881prisoner881334 Posts: 30Member
    Comments on your observations:

    Size
    Calling the Sovereign "bigger" than the Galaxy might not really be the best descriptor. Sure, it's longer, but that's measuring from the very tip of the forward edge of the saucer to the very tail of the warp nacelle. How much of that space is actually habitable and usable? the Galaxy may be shorter but it's also wider and with smaller, stubbier nacelles. I've never actually done a comparison, but just looking at the two I'd say the Sovereign has most of its length tied up in those long engine nacelles. I'm curious what you'd get if we could do some actual usable volume calculations between the Galaxy and the Sovereign, omitting the nacelles and pylons. I have a gut feeling they're much closer in volume that you'd imagine.

    Saucer
    Having a second set of warp engines on the saucer would not be a useful addition for something intended as a "lifeboat." The saucer would separate from the damaged stardrive section and continue on impulse to a safe location in-system. There it would await rescue from a warp-capable starship. Having a second set of warp drives means another core, another matter/antimatter storage system, not to mention the bulk and mass of warp coils. So for an exploration mission it's not needed. And if the Sovereign were sent into an open war situation, it wouldn't go alone in the first place anymore than we'd send an unescorted carrier into harm's way, so again the lifeboat needs no warp drive of its own.

    Warp Speed
    Canon sources place the maximum speed of the Sovereign at warp 9.7 and the Galaxy at warp 9.6, so the initial assertion that the Sovereign is "slow" are wrong to begin with unless you're comparing it to smaller vessels like the Intrepid. And while warp physics are clearly the realm of fiction, one can guess that smaller vessels can reach higher speeds easier than larger ones with equivalent power output. And lest we forget, the warp scale is logarithmic, so a mere 0.1 increase in warp speed is still no laughing matter. *AND* we can't forget Starfleet had to go back to the drawing board for its warp engines to stop "polluting" subspace, so perhaps that explains the minor bump in speed even with a much more powerful warp core.

    Torpedoes
    I've always been fascinated by the illogical design of the torpedo tubes. These torpedoes are very small, very low-mass devices, fitted with very high-performance sublight engines and boosted by warp fields during firing. It makes no sense to have a long torpedo tube for this kind of thing when it can (and will) accelerate to near-relativistic velocities all on its own very quickly even if you kicked it out of a shuttle bay with your bare foot. The Tech Manual says they can even continue at superluminal velocity when fired at warp, although they cannot cross into warp if fired at sublight. So why the need for a long tube? The real complication here shouldn't be the length of the firing tube; it should be the loading and arming feed mechanisms from wherever the "magazine" of tubes is located. What I'd like to see is a Gatling-style rotary torpedo launcher.

    Power
    If you look at the Galaxy warp core versus the Sovereign, you'll see the Galaxy core has a single central shaft above and below the reaction chamber, whereas the Sovereign has multiple shafts (four, I think). The implication here is Starfleet has probably melded the ideas of four separate warp cores into a single design utilizing a shared reaction chamber. So probably you don't get 4x the power output, but if you even got double it would be a phenomenal increase in output over the Galaxy class.

    Someone mentioned earlier that it seemed illogical for Starfleet to have a single warp core when the real US Navy Enterprise carrier had eight nuclear reactors. I think that's missing the point. The Navy's Enterprise had eight reactors because reactor tech was exceedingly primitive back then. Modern US Navy carriers have two A4W pressurized water reactors, not eight.

    You could reason a need for two cores for redundancy's sake, but recall that a matter/antimatter reactor is *not* a requirement for warp flight. You just need high-energy plasma to power a warp coil. Presumably you could even do it with a fusion reactor, perhaps siphoning off the impulse drive system. No doubt speeds and range would be dramatically lower but it's better than puttering around at full impulse.
  • prisoner881prisoner881334 Posts: 30Member
    Oh, and last but not least, it's always been intimated by the Tech Manuals that the warp core's power output is tied to how big it is, physically. Taller cores make more juice than shorter ones, right? So why the hell does Starfleet insist on laying its cores out vertically? Every starship they've produced in the last couple of centuries is longer than it is tall. Turn those cores their side and run them down the long axis of the ship! Remember, there's no inherent "up" or "down" in space. Our beloved characters stay stuck do the decks due to gravity generators, not the pull of the Earth. There's no reason these cores can't be laid out this way, and this is the logical way to lay them out *if* core length is a significant factor in total power output.
  • McCMcC347 Posts: 697Member
    Oh, and last but not least, it's always been intimated by the Tech Manuals that the warp core's power output is tied to how big it is, physically. Taller cores make more juice than shorter ones, right? So why the hell does Starfleet insist on laying its cores out vertically? Every starship they've produced in the last couple of centuries is longer than it is tall. Turn those cores their side and run them down the long axis of the ship! Remember, there's no inherent "up" or "down" in space. Our beloved characters stay stuck do the decks due to gravity generators, not the pull of the Earth. There's no reason these cores can't be laid out this way, and this is the logical way to lay them out *if* core length is a significant factor in total power output.
    I think this might be true for reaction chamber size, but not overall height. Overall height just dictates the separation between the deuterium and antideuterium fuel-pods and the distance they have to be brought to combine in the reaction chamber located in main engineering. The Sovereign (and Defiant) reaction chambers are huge, while the Galaxy is slightly smaller and the Intrepid even smaller still.

    TL;DR it isn't the height of the core, but rather the size of the reaction chamber. (i.e. "it's not the length, it's the girth!" ;))
  • SaquistSaquist1 Posts: 0Member
    @ prisoner881

    -Sovereign isn't bigger than Galaxy.
    Sovereign volume = 2,429,193 cubic meters
    Galaxy volume = 5,820,983 cubic meters
    Galaxy is 2.4166 Times Bigger and 6,510,000 Tons vs 2,717,00

    Reference:
    http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWvolumetrics.html

    -All Federation ships are cruisers. They are designed for solitary missions and combat.

    -Sovereign's speed: Canon = On Screen. On screen says warp 8 and explains why the ship was caught so easily.

    -Torpedoes according to the manuals don't have engines but sustainer engines but that makes no sense otherwise they couldn't catch an enemy ship at warp unless they could generate and accelerate their own warp field. Trust me Torpedoes in Trek have huge problems other than the tube size.

    -What the power core looks like is less important to me than what that core is powering.
    The only time in the entire 20 years of the Galaxy being on screen the Enterprise "Didn't have enough power" was in the Best of Both Worlds. Geordi said pointedly that they couldn't fire the deflector at warp because they were using "everything they had just to keep up with the Borg". Thus Galaxy has more than enough power to operate max warp, max shields and max weapons.

    Prisoner, my deduction is that Sovereign cannot because the Regenerative shields might need and excessive amount of power and that is the only logical conclusion I can make that fits the evidence at hand. (I'm not ever going to conclude advanced means better in every way.) Is the Sovereign Core Better? I'd say so. They sustained multiple Direct hits and collided with the Scimitar. Identical situations have led to warp core breaches with the Galaxy Class Enterprise in TNG and Generations.

    P.S
    Personally I have no problem with the vertical core.
    Defiant (which I rate at 200 meters long and 6 Decks) clearly has a short core and outputs Galaxy class levels of power. Which is one of the reason it can't be 120 meters long and four decks with a 3 deck tall core.
  • StormcloudStormcloud1 Posts: 0Member
    i dont think the warp engine redesign has any impact of the speed of the ship - if anything they go faster - voyager has a stated top speed of warp 9.975 that is very fast indeed and its design was subspace safe

    i'm not sure where you got that canon max warp on sov was warp 8 - they might only be able to achieve warp 8 in some specific senarios such as through a nebula or something - but considering that all recent federation ships have had a top speed in the high 9's i think its fair to say that the most advanced ship in the fleet - the enterprise -e isn't also slower than the enterprise -a/b generation of ships

    power - again dont think it was ever stated wha thte sov's core generated - got a vague mentions of the galaxys core in a couple of episodes though - but again nothing we can directly compare - warp core design philosphy - who knows but again most advanced ship in the fleet probably ment it was packing the most advanced core in the fleet - it is possible it didn't actually generate as much as the galaxys core since the ship is quite abit smaller in mass so can assume that it doesn't need as much power to move at the same speed - but i still maintain that it is almost certainly faster and the core probably is as powerful certainly its more compact borrowing from the same design as the defiants multiple matter stream core - one thing is for sure it didn't take the enterprise long to get from the romulan neutral zone to earth

    but regardless we cant really compare them with anything other than what we think as there is no REAL ships to compare - as far as plot armour for the ships - they obviously are not that different in function but the sov is a more militaristic design - the galaxy was a mobile federation outpost - with children and families - i think with starfleets recent history that idea was put on the not so great an idea list and a leaner ship was designed that was overall a more potent warship - with comparible firepower but much greater survivability

    so in a fight between the 2 i'd rather be in a sov than a galaxy
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Here is a interesting link. The source of my reported, warp core replacement scenario. Lots of interest. The idea of an ejectable bridge in new to me and completely out of the question. http://techspecs.acalltoduty.com/sovereign.html
  • SaquistSaquist1 Posts: 0Member
    JR,

    If this is going too far on your thread please let me know.
    I am only posting this due to the relevance to the Sovereign Class and the upgrades you're adding.
    Please consider this reference material.

    THE SOVEREIGN TECH PROBLEM

    The last four character ships of Trek are dramatically different.
    Galaxy established the Technology of TNG, it was not a test bed ship.
    Defiant was a prototype warship that upgraded TNG weapons to Quantum Torpedoes and Pulse Phasers
    Intrepid dramatically enhanced speed and efficiency.

    The QUESTION is "How is Sovereign more advanced"?
    Enterprise Canon speed: As Picard emerges from the Ready Room speaking with Admiral Janeway on Subspace.

    Lay in a new course... Take us to
    Romulus. Warp eight.


    Everything about Sovereign Warp Propulsion harkens back to the Constitution Class.
    -High perched Engines: meaning the Engines generate such intense fields they are considered hazardous to the crew
    -Longer rather than shorter: For Voyager short nacelles meant she couldn't maneuver at warp. While the longer nacelles on the Refit and the original Constitution mean the ship literally can fly in circles and execute warp strafing. Couple this with Encounter at Farpoint where the Enterprise performs a similar maneuver without leaving warp.

    This might mean that longer nacelles give maneuverability but creates more drag differential as space time flows around the field.

    -No articulation Frame. In physics power is generated by moving opposing magnetic fields across one another. Warp engines are called engines because they include the warp core. But Voyager's nacelles may actually generate power as well. If Trek ships generate zero spin scalar fields like certain theoretical varieties of the Higgs boson (and thus field) reducing or nullifying the Higgs mass effect on normal matter then one maybe able produce power from the way Higgs decays into photons. This would be tapping into the unlimited energy of the universe or zero point energy, or vacuum energy.

    This could explain why Intrepid can achieve a speed 3x faster than the Galaxy Class Enterprise. What does 3x faster mean on the Warp Speed Chart?

    mpi6.jpg

    When Roddenberry redesigned the warp curve and Sternbach and other drafted this concept it was to assure that faster speeds meant infinitely more power. The Galaxy's top speed of warp 9.6 is bellow 100 million Megawatts. (100,000 Gigawatts) (Cities operate at 22 Gigawatts). Intrepid's top speed take it into the 100 Billion Megawatt range which is more than 1,000 more power than the Galaxy Class.

    Has the series kept this level of power?
    Not consistently

    Memory Alpha
    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Watt

    Clearly these numbers are thrown around loosely by the writing staff.
    However whatever power is to believed the concept is the same. Somehow Intrepid's design allows it to generate a significant amount of power over Galaxy. Clearly it doesn't show that power in Offense or Defense. Thus the only logical conclusion is they're is something extremely special about the Intrepid class starship warp nacelles.

    Conclusion:

    If we assume Sovereign is faster than Intrepid simply because of a statement or assumption that Sovereign is the most ADVANCED ship in the fleet. It really throws the tech out the air lock. Remember many assumed Defiant was faster than Voyager until the episode "The Sound of Her Voice" revealed Defiant is a warp 8 warship. Yet Defiant showed nothing special about it's warp drive. But people expected that because it was new...it was better. However, Star Fleet Moth-balled Defiant and despite being "advanced" Enterprise was ordered away from a Borg Invasion as well as having never been seen on the critical offensives against the Dominion.

    It's been my experience that fans have huge expectations of what "New" and "advanced" means.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Saquist, as always, you are very insightful. Thank you for your continued interest. Everything you say works well with my conceptual understanding of Star Trek tech. Likewise, we could image any number technical or economic circumstances to account for varied rates of tech deployment. Basically, I'm not particularly concerned with relative merits or comparative prowess. I'm about making the technology feel more believable and more tangible, at least to myself. That and introducing new and interesting ideas. Roddenberry, had design rule involving at least two thirds line of sight visibility between nacelles. Is there any rational behind such a concept? I can't escape the feeling star trek battles can be changed if not improved. Consider challenges in depicting even the distances and speeds of a supersonic dog fight and overlay that with repeatedly crossing the lightspeed threshold. That's what warp strafing implies to me. As always it's a exploration and evolution of ideas.
  • StormcloudStormcloud1 Posts: 0Member
    your throwing real science at a science fiction show - it simply doesn't work that way

    as for the warp power curve - (now i'll throw real science at it) remember the first proposed warp bubble ship? needing jupiter sized amounts of exotic matter and energy requirements of the average star? well a few changes to the maths and dr sonny white who is currently reseraching space warping for nasa reduced the power requiremnts to warp space into the realm of feasibility simply by rapidly occilating the field which reduces the stiffness of spacetime - my point if you want you can create any science fiction to explain away ships going faster and faster - throw in transwarp/slipstream drives hell the enterprise d once hit warp 10 and ended up on the otherside of the universe

    again nacelle length has nothing to do with anything other than the artist coming up with new look for a new ship

    as for picard ordering up warp 8........ so?? if he had ordered up maximum warp and data said yes sir warp 8 at your command then you'd have something - infact ordering up warp 8 would indicate its faster than the galaxy as its cruise speed was warp 6 - the defiant being slower is no real surprise it has very small nacelles hidden away under layers of armour - it was also a prototype that was never really finished infact its design was quite badly flawed

    some novels suggest that the sov has a top speed greater than that of voyager maxing out at 9.98

    and if you really wanna pick holes in the sov design - in first contact the quantum torps are launched from teh captains yatch lol
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Viewing film shots of the sovereign in all three movies shows a marked lack of consistency. I'm feeling a little less constrained now as I finalized my version.

    I've been working with the assumption the nacelles have habitable spaces. Does anyone have differing Ideas or insights.
  • StormcloudStormcloud1 Posts: 0Member
    well i can see them having engineering spaces but actual habital regions? seems abit close to some seriously power space distorting fields and very strong magnetic fields too to contain the plasma - soooo not convinced its a good idea - maybe some high energy plasma physics labs or something but yeah not living spaces
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Purely access corridor and engineering work space. A window would look back at the injectors and through warp coils. The questions really is weather such spaces could be occupied during operation. I recall a next generation scene with a character at the door of the injector room. It may have been Q or altered reality scene.
  • StormcloudStormcloud1 Posts: 0Member
    possibly for short durations in shielded areas but not in the coils themselves - besides i always assumed the the inside would be a vacuum for the plasma to well work otherwise would melt everything - and that any air inside them would only be there for maintence work

    question is how you get up there - those pylons looks like a turbolift would struggle to fit through - need beefing up from sov standard design - also gotta figure that would need fairly big conduits for the warp plasma and assosiated maintence shafts
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    A picture: Screenshot (14).jpg Long jefferies tubes for access. Now, I have some sort of impulse reactor out there.
    103988.jpg
  • SaquistSaquist1 Posts: 0Member
    Stormcloud wrote: »
    your throwing real science at a science fiction show - it simply doesn't work that way

    That doesn't make sense
    It's a science fiction. Of course it works that way.
    jrhottel wrote: »
    A picture: Screenshot (14).jpg Long jefferies tubes for access. Now, I have some sort of impulse reactor out there.

    Yes, in the next generation there was a room that looked directly down the length of the nacelle.
    What you should really see is if there room for a turbo lift because that's a long way to climb. Perhaps some other form of transport.
  • StormcloudStormcloud1 Posts: 0Member
    your trying to use real world physics to argue science fiction science which does not obey the laws of physics - if you could use real world physics on it then we would have warp drives etc - most of star trek science is just made up by writers who have NO understanding of physics - so its no real surprise you cant just whip up a functioning starship from the star trek tech manuals

    and when you start talking about the higgs field etc remember none of this stuff was even thought of when star trek was created - the warp power graph was i think from the tng engineering manual - therefore you can probably say its the warp power graph for a galaxy class starship - afterall you would have to assume that larger mass or in terms of real world attempts to warp space the size of the warp bubble created has a direct relationship to the power required - so there ya go sov smaller ships uses less power to go at same speed - now i'm doing it again
  • McCMcC347 Posts: 697Member
    Stormcloud wrote: »
    your trying to use real world physics to argue science fiction science which does not obey the laws of physics - if you could use real world physics on it then we would have warp drives etc - most of star trek science is just made up by writers who have NO understanding of physics - so its no real surprise you cant just whip up a functioning starship from the star trek tech manuals

    and when you start talking about the higgs field etc remember none of this stuff was even thought of when star trek was created - the warp power graph was i think from the tng engineering manual - therefore you can probably say its the warp power graph for a galaxy class starship - afterall you would have to assume that larger mass or in terms of real world attempts to warp space the size of the warp bubble created has a direct relationship to the power required - so there ya go sov smaller ships uses less power to go at same speed - now i'm doing it again

    Please don't use this sort of reasoning; it's incredibly discouraging and very short-sighted.

    Yes, this is all the product of someone(s) cooking up some cool things to tell cool stories. Acknowleged, got it. That said, that does not preclude the ability to create a consistent, workable framework from the trappings they've established and use that framework to establish limits, make predictions, and so forth.

    Yes, it starts from fiction. But it's fiction grounded in both fact and in a universe that must make sense according to its own rules, too. That's one of the key elements of science fiction (which, contrary to popular belief, does not mean "made up science;" science fiction is no different a descriptor than romantic fiction -- it's a description of the important distinguishing element for the fiction's setting or trappings).

    So, sure, sometimes Star Trek physics breaks away from conventional physics. The why of that, internal to the universe, is relevant; the why of that external to the universe -- because some writer wanted to do it -- is not.
  • StormcloudStormcloud1 Posts: 0Member
    i'm not saying that the universe cant have a set of rules to follow - but trying to inject recent real world physics discoveries into the star trek universe to argue why a ship cant so x speed and y can is silly - specially when there is no evidence in the films as to the sovs top speed - having them say mr data warp 8 please doesn't mean warp 8 is the ship maxed out - traditionally in all the shows when max speed was called for they called it that maximum warp

    so yes there should be a consistent set of rules (that said the writers did often mess that up too) but those rules have nothing to do with real world physics - except where the star trek universe is superficially the same as ours - in that a layperson would not notice the difference (fancy ass tech aside) but a physician would think the universe had suddenly got very weird indeed
  • McCMcC347 Posts: 697Member
    The "Warp 8" comment simply provides a lower limit on the Sovereign's maximum speed, which shouldn't be confused with an upper limit. We know that a Sovereign can do at least Warp 8, because it was so-stated.

    Given the context of the scene (traveling to Romulus in haste, but not with extreme urgency), I think it's reasonable to infer that this is not the Sovereign's top speed.

    So, regardless of our differing feelings on approach, I nevertheless agree with your conclusion, Stormcloud. ;)

    EDIT: It's worth considering that in her first appearance, Enterprise-E traveled from the Romulan border to Earth in less time than it took for the Borg and the defending Federation fleet to travel from the Typhon sector to Earth, which is an appreciable distance. From their starting point, prior to heading to the Romulan border, Data computes that it will take them "three hours, twenty-five minutes" at "maximum warp" to reach the Typhon sector. Using warp 8's TNG-calibrated c equivalent, that's about 1024c, which only gives you about 0.4 light years.

    While that's certainly possible, given the size of a sector in Trek ("A Galaxy-class ship was capable of scanning a radius of ten light years at a time, which allowed the ship to effectively scan one sector per day" from The Wounded and "Voyager's use of the graviton catapult "hurtled" the ship across thirty sectors of space in less than an hour, a journey that would have otherwise taken three years to accomplish" from The Voyager Conspiracy) and the fact that they refer to a fleet being mobilized in the Typhon sector (rather than "in this sector" or "in our sector" or even "here in the Typhon sector"), it's pretty implicit that they're crossing at least two sectors worth of space to get to the battle back at Earth, and they're doing it in short enough time to make a difference.

    That's a lot faster than warp eight or 0.4 light years.

    EDIT #2: It's worth noting that the Typhon Sector probably contains the Typhon Expanse, site of the events where Bozeman and Enterprise entered their causality loop in "Cause and Effect." At the time of the episode, the Typhon Expanse had never been explored and it's also mentioned in First Contact that the cube will "cross the Federation border in less than an hour." Thus we have a cube coming from outside the Federation on a trajectory that makes intercepting it in the Typhon Sector a tactically preferable move, which is itself located far enough from the core of Federation territory to have not yet been explored by the mid-to-late 2360s.

    This is all conspiring toward making a very solid case for Sovereign drive performance to be truly phenomenal, rather than crippled. Sorry, Saquist. ;)
  • SaquistSaquist1 Posts: 0Member
    Stormcloud wrote: »
    your trying to use real world physics to argue science fiction science which does not obey the laws of physics - if you could use real world physics on it then we would have warp drives etc - most of star trek science is just made up by writers who have NO understanding of physics - so its no real surprise you cant just whip up a functioning starship from the star trek tech manuals

    and when you start talking about the higgs field etc remember none of this stuff was even thought of when star trek was created - the warp power graph was i think from the tng engineering manual - therefore you can probably say its the warp power graph for a galaxy class starship - afterall you would have to assume that larger mass or in terms of real world attempts to warp space the size of the warp bubble created has a direct relationship to the power required - so there ya go sov smaller ships uses less power to go at same speed - now i'm doing it again

    I'm sorry, Stormcloud that is a misrepresentation.
    If the the show says it's is a simulation and extrapolation of the real world then it does represent the law of physics, it doesn't have to be literally true nor does the inclusion of physics become invalid.

    Antimatter, White Holes, singularities, Delta V, matter, energy, cosmic strings, Dark Matter Dwarf Stars, Planets, Gravitons, Tachyons, Cosmological Constants, Space Warping, Supernova's, lightyears,multiple dimensions, time travel neutron stars and pulsars, and over 50 real stars and constellations have been named in Trek they are all real or viable scientific postulations on the real universe.

    If they give me Time and Distance in TNG Bloodlines then I can calculate rate of speed at warp nine. If it's correct... Then you can apply REAL physics to a science fiction story. It's that simple.
    McC wrote: »

    Given the context of the scene (traveling to Romulus in haste, but not with extreme urgency), I think it's reasonable to infer that this is not the Sovereign's top speed.

    Remember inferences require proper premises. Not to get technical with speech but you can't logically infer anything other than "The Enterprise can attain warp Eight." Anything else is an assumption and depending on other data one may speculate as to it's top speed.
    EDIT: It's worth considering that in her first appearance, Enterprise-E traveled from the Romulan border to Earth in less time than it took for the Borg and the defending Federation fleet to travel from the Typhon sector to Earth, which is an appreciable distance. From their starting point, prior to heading to the Romulan border, Data computes that it will take them "three hours, twenty-five minutes" at "maximum warp" to reach the Typhon sector. Using warp 8's TNG-calibrated c equivalent, that's about 1024c, which only gives you about 0.4 light years.

    While that's certainly possible, given the size of a sector in Trek ("A Galaxy-class ship was capable of scanning a radius of ten light years at a time, which allowed the ship to effectively scan one sector per day" from The Wounded and "Voyager's use of the graviton catapult "hurtled" the ship across thirty sectors of space in less than an hour, a journey that would have otherwise taken three years to accomplish" from The Voyager Conspiracy) and the fact that they refer to a fleet being mobilized in the Typhon sector (rather than "in this sector" or "in our sector" or even "here in the Typhon sector"), it's pretty implicit that they're crossing at least two sectors worth of space to get to the battle back at Earth, and they're doing it in short enough time to make a difference.

    That's a lot faster than warp eight or 0.4 light years.

    EDIT #2: It's worth noting that the Typhon Sector probably contains the Typhon Expanse, site of the events where Bozeman and Enterprise entered their causality loop in "Cause and Effect." At the time of the episode, the Typhon Expanse had never been explored and it's also mentioned in First Contact that the cube will "cross the Federation border in less than an hour." Thus we have a cube coming from outside the Federation on a trajectory that makes intercepting it in the Typhon Sector a tactically preferable move, which is itself located far enough from the core of Federation territory to have not yet been explored by the mid-to-late 2360s.

    This is all conspiring toward making a very solid case for Sovereign drive performance to be truly phenomenal, rather than crippled. Sorry, Saquist. ;)

    I've done some numbers on this before and from what I could tell according to the Dialogue there are some rather steep contradictions. Defiant is limited to warp 8. Yet the ship was present at the battle for Earth which according to DS9 is upwards of days away from Earth. The Cube was spotted by Deep Space 5.

    I believe the 3 hour estimate is suspect.
    We have examples of attempts of the Enterprise attempting to reach Earth from the Neutral Zone on a number of occasions. The First Borg Invasion, Unification where the Romulans attempt to reach Vulcan. I'll do a bit more research to combine with your information.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    I'm interested in what makes a good story and from that point of you Saquist has some interesting ideas. But in the context of the script writers and movie makers it's most likely they were about wow power. The greatest ever hero ship if you will. Anything else would be playing a long game that's not suited to motion pictures.

    Jefferies tubes: There simply is not the room for a turbolift. Had thought to have a powered slide in the tube. Like a body length automotive maintenance creeper. Not a design priority.
  • SaquistSaquist1 Posts: 0Member
    McC wrote: »
    Given the context of the scene (traveling to Romulus in haste, but not with extreme urgency), I think it's reasonable to infer that this is not the Sovereign's top speed.


    I've looked over the information in First Contact.
    -Firstly we can't infer a negative from a positive: In other words we can't say that Warp 8 is NOT Enterprise's Maximum Warp. We only know that it is the highest known speed.

    -Secondly: According to overlapping transmissions and Admiral Hayes The Cube was detected at Deep Space 5 beyond Federation Space and it would cross the border in 1 hour. Data says it would take 3 hours 23 mins to intercept the Borg Ship. Enterprise's current location is unknown (even though they are clearly in the vicinity of the Eagle Nebula's Pillars of Creation 7,000 lightyears from Earth.) Incidentally the Federation is said to be 8,000 lightyears across (ST:FC). Also Defiant is said to be on the front-lines with the Fleet at the initial attack. Defiant's speed is known. Warp Eight, however warp eight is not a known quantity. But that tells us that the Cube was traveling at about warp 9 which is Defiant's best speed (Power dumped on SIF)

    -Thirdly, Sectors aren't clearly defined in Star Trek and used rather loosely. The 30 sectors for example, Voyager is much faster at the Warp Charts Warp six 213 X lightspeed can travel 600 lightyears (30 sectors) in a 1 1/2 year. And your warp 8 estimate would be faster than the canon warp 9 and that just makes no sense. (1024 x c vs. 834 x c)

    So we are back a square one...
    Warp 8 as the ship's best known speed.

    jrhottel wrote: »

    Jefferies tubes: There simply is not the room for a turbolift. Had thought to have a powered slide in the tube. Like a body length automotive maintenance creeper. Not a design priority.[/QUOTE

    What about a one man lift? You hang on a platform and it takes you up at an angle?

    Story boarding is not Rocket science.
    I've written a story or two.
    The best way to write a story is to establish your 3 ACTS. Exposition, Confrontation and Resolution.

    The best film to see these acts play out is The Matrix.
    ACT ONE:
    The opening act introduces Neo the main character. The story draws this act out in multiple encounters. We meet Trinity who leads us to Morpheus and if you count the Matrix scroll we are meet Cypher as the betrayer and then to all the other characters.

    -Notice there are no major confrontations until Discovery is completed and Neo knows his purpose.

    ACT TWO CONFRONTATION
    This quickly proceeds The Discovery Phase. Cypher sets the trap and our Heroes and Heroine struggle to get out of the Matrix. The main character begins to discover himself. Much like The Empire Strikes Back this part of the plot is driven by pure adrenaline by means of a constant chase. (very effective for suspense)

    ACT THREE RESOLUTION
    This starts as everyone else is out of the Matrix and Neo is left to face the enemy (agent Smith) who is smartly developed through the other 2 phases. This is the best location for plot twist. Against the rules set up earlier in Act One our hero looses to a smarter enemy but returns to life and defeats Smith in grand fashion.
  • BlueNeumannBlueNeumann357 Posts: 1,104Member
    I'm a big fan of the five-act structure myself, it's a bit more balanced and easily divisible: intro, conceit, turn, spiral, climax. It has roots in Shakespeare. It plugs into the three act mindset well, but gives you more goals to reach to keep the story from lagging. When you're writing a 100 page script, you can look up at the corner and instantly tell where you're supposed to be.

    Think about Terminator 2:
    Intro: The terminators come back in time... but instead of Arnie being the bad guy, he's the good guy!
    Conceit: John and the Terminator rescue Sarah from the Asylum
    Turn: Sarah tries to kill Miles Dyson
    Spiral: "The team" try to destroy Skynet-- which becomes an all out-war and attracts the attention of the T-1000
    Climax: The final showdown between the Conners and the T-1000
  • StormcloudStormcloud1 Posts: 0Member
    as i said to the layperson the universe is the same - but arguing physics with regards to the higgs field which we have teh barest understanding of in our current science with regards to why voyager is faster than a galaxy class ship is nonsence and since your arguing higgs your talking mass reductions to justify the speed which basically comes down to the warp speed/ power graph is dependant on the ship and not a constant for ships of different masses

    which takes me to sov is less massive - has 4 matter/anitmatter streams in its core compared to galaxy's 1 stream - has larger warp nacelles - its the most advanced ship in the fleet - its faster than galaxy and its top speed is probably up there where in novels been stated as warp 9.98 absolutely destroying the galaxys top speed

    just curious but when in first contact did it say the defiant was on the federation borader waiting for the borg - all that we know from the film is that it was there at earth when the enterprise arrived
  • SaquistSaquist1 Posts: 0Member
    Indeed, Blueeumann, The Star Trek Scripts have always been divided into those Five Acts. However I tend to recommend the 3 Acts for beginners...it's simple and concise. What would say is the Matrix Five Acts?

    ----
    Sorry, Stormcloud,
    But the inclusion of current theoretical physics into science fiction is exactly what Rick Sternbach, Michael Okuda and Gene Roddenberry did with the TNG Tech Manual. (Have you not Read it? I have.) The obvious purpose is to give the story a higher suspension of disbelief and total immersion.

    Adding more logic and reality doesn't make a story nonsense, it makes more sense.

    First Contact: As they listen to the Fleet Transmission of the Borg Attack a person over subspace says:

    Random Transmission: "They broken through the defense perimeter toward Earth."
    Random Transmission: "Defiant continue to attack!"

    This is the dialogue as the Fleet engages in the Typhon Sector.
    Many people believe the battle started At Earth but the details reveal the battle started out at Deep Space 5 and the Typhon Sector. Despite Defiant's slow speed it had more than enough time to join the fleet and thus delay the Cube so that even a slow Sovereign Class ship could arrive in time to stop the Cube at Earth.

    (Always look at the details)
Sign In or Register to comment.