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3DDefiant - Martin Concept Model

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  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish9712 Posts: 5,302Member
    First one looks fun but I would only use it for box modeling or maybe in specific places in working a control mesh. You would still need to loop and reposition things.

    Heck though that plug woulda saved me about 20min in max last night! Was doing the exact same thing but had to rebuild the edges by hand.
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • RekkertRekkert4037 Buenos Aires, ArgentinaPosts: 2,302Member
    Another alternative to adding more loops is to select the edges that are causing you trouble and increase their 'crease' on the transform panel. This tells sub-d that you want to keep that particular edge a bit sharper. By using this on the 90° angles you'll avoid the top faces "leaking" into the middle part, without having to modify the rest of the topology or add more polys.
    For all my finished Trek fan art, please visit my portfolio
  • PhilArtPhilArt172 Posts: 22Member
    Thanks everybody for the suggestions. Theoretically the bevel modifier should be providing the support loops for the subdivision, but I was still getting that pinching no matter how I finessed the settings. Ultimately, manually beveling those two corner vertices and building loops out from there did the trick.

    MKF, you're right that Blender doesn't have smoothing groups
  • RekkertRekkert4037 Buenos Aires, ArgentinaPosts: 2,302Member
    edited September 2019 #35
    Keep in mind, the lack of smoothing groups is by design, precisely because of the crease feature. Creasing the edges at 100% gives you the exact same result than smoothing groups do in 3DS Max, with the added benefit of being able to reduce the percentage to 50% or any other number in order to get bevels without adding more topology. In fact, unlike what some online tutorials will tell you, you shouldn't be using a bevel modifier for topology that will then be subdivided, at least not on the entire model. Best practice for sub-d, at least on Blender, is to crease the edges as needed, and add loops (ctrl+r) and bevels only when necessary.

    For example, here's a simple cube, with sub-d and edges creased. The first one has all edges at 50% crease, giving it a smooth bevel. The second one is at 100%, so all edges are sharp. The third one showcases how creased edges has the same abilities as smoothing groups do in 3DS Max. The fourth one, is just the cube with no edges creased.

    s1rhy4dkal89.png
    Post edited by Rekkert on
    MadKoiFishPhilArt
    For all my finished Trek fan art, please visit my portfolio
  • evil_genius_180evil_genius_1804256 Posts: 11,034Member
    Using a bevel isn't your best bet, as it won't give you all of the control loops you need. That's what is causing your issue for sure. You don't have the needed control loops in that corner. The easiest way to add them in Blender is Loop Cut and Slide. Loop Cut and Slide is a wonderful tool that I make use of a lot in Blender, especially when doing Sub D.
    RekkertPhilArt
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish9712 Posts: 5,302Member
    Yeah bevels are only to make a lower poly curve in max. Usually it is all loops. The crease tool sounds cool I have to wonder what the subdiv wireframe looks like if it automatically loops edges etc. I use smoothing groups to 1 provide hard edges to work with later or to denote large areas of mesh that have no need to have crossing verts or edges. I also use it to push looped rounded edges to a tighter curve without a buttload of close loops like I often see used in blender.

    But yes bevel is mostly to use on perpendicular faces to eliminate the cgi effect of a hard edge. Something you do once the subdiv is collapsed/frozen/whatever terminology is used.

    It really sounds like blender has more automated ways of dealing with subdiv. Max all I can do is loop a series of edges on a percent of parellel edges between the selection. IE means I cannot make a loop 2" in from X set of edges it is only a percent of the forward and backward edges. >_> Then again most of max edit tools originate from plugins from 2000 or earlier. And I use 6~7yr old version.

    Anyhow not said but glad to see updates for this mesh.
    RekkertPhilArt
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • PhilArtPhilArt172 Posts: 22Member
    edited September 2019 #38
    Maybe I'll revisit using the crease tool vs the bevel modifier later on, but for now I'm wanting to keep the modifier stack uncollapsed. Without collapsing at least the solidify modifier I can't utilize some of the other suggested solutions.

    As for not using bevel on the whole model, I am only using it on the panels and have it limited by angle, so really not that many edges are beveled. It worked for most of these shapes, just this one concave sort of cutout really caused the problem. The main hull, wings, nose, etc are controlled with support loops.

    Edit: I don't always love how creased edges look. I used them in previous versions of the main hull, but it didn't quite look totally refined so I went back with supporting loops instead. However, with additional thought, they probably are the way to go for all of these panel edges. For small details seen at a distance 50% crease will look good and will keep the geometry simple.
    Post edited by PhilArt on
  • ora tzoora tzo68 Posts: 17Member
    edited September 2019 #39
    Interesting discussion here regarding creases vs bevels.

    yre2jncstbrr.jpg
    xgstnbtcio26.jpg

    I've used bevels myself, creases just don't look well though I haven't looked at the resultant topology it produces. Might just need to bevel it afterwards.

    Also you get some more control using the bevel weights as opposed to just leaving the modifier to angle.


    #Edit: In this case would smoothing groups of faces in max avoid this, the pulling out of this edge relative to the bottom?
    This is just creased subd with a bevel modifier put over that.
    s8mdamqwechn.jpg

    And whats the difference between turbosmooth and opensubd?

    Post edited by ora tzo on
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish9712 Posts: 5,302Member
    Never heard of opensubd but so far I have not seen much difference in the mesh between mesh-smooth and turbosmooth. Other than prior sometimes crashes max while the latter has not. But I am on max 2013 and most subdiv issues I had were in 2010. Mesh smooth does have more "controls" but I never use them. Stuff like subobject level control level soft selection smoothing pram (strength relax, req a specific base mesh) and input conversion (tris or quads) OH and I think turbo only subdivs in NURMS


    subdiv-edge-vs-bevel.png?w=400

    Also bevel and control loops are very different things. Bevels add a angle change to the base object resulting in a curvature in the subdiv modifier or whatever the client calls it. Loops ring around the object without changing the geometry. See above image. Also note in attached image the flow of the wires between loops and bevels. Bevels inherently have no controlling loops in inside corners and can cause a lot of mess, visual or not.

    Yeah seeing what blender does sans a isoline display would help a lot or to see a base mesh wire of things. EG what does CREASE do to the base mesh, or is it a not seen in viewport modifier that only effects selected edges when the subdiv is applied.

    How I would use smoothing groups to make a mesh that matches, my example is not exact as I am not sure if the upper curve is to match the lower etc. I would make it hard edged and go in and round things by hand. BUT it can be looped to make a easily cleaned mesh with all edge rounded off. Just need to respect those inside corners with loops and connecting edges and it should have no issue.
    I used 6 IDs be they smoothing or material. I used material so you can see them visually. I could use less but I applied different ones to retain the geometry flow so loops are flat or even. Spacing changes due to the sizes of each polygon. I have heard some software can make these X-units each to even them out. For me if it does not change the geometry the edges go away in clean up.

    Just hard corners but overall shape ready to be beveled up for tight edges or rounded ones. My method unless a round corner is a MUST have.
    subdiv-groups-mat-id.png?w=400

    An example of it with rounded corners via loops and smoothing groups. This forces all the subdiv edges to the corners more. Allowing for the flat areas to be wiped of all those extra loops when you collapse the mesh.
    looped-smothing-mat-id.png?w=400
    I also added IDs to the loops crossing the mesh and kept them aligned to features fo reasier clean up or refrence. I could have minimized some loops by not letting them remain linear. ro allowing the edges going across flat surfaces to do whatever with the idea you just delete the lot later as flat faces need no edges crossing over in a complete object. (unless your client just blows up on render etc. Seen this clean up method in Maya rino max and LW, originally stole the idea from a LW user (IRML I think)

    Images SHOULD be clickable if not drag them into a new window and remove the ?w=400 code from the image to get full size.

    Sorry for the likely long winded post on something not really related. Hopefully it helps someone.
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • ora tzoora tzo68 Posts: 17Member
    edited September 2019 #41
    Yeah I wasn't expecting such an indepth response, thanks for that.

    Also regarding the bevel I was using, the profile has been flattened so it pretty much is a loop cut as its generated from the corner but with no angle change.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/555448292087955456/619516835267739648/q0W73K3nOq.mp4

    Heres a vid of that.
    Post edited by ora tzo on
  • PhilArtPhilArt172 Posts: 22Member
    edited September 2019 #42
    Ok, first real attempts at creating paneling using a subtractive method (on top of the nose). First I tried hand drawing a mesh to Boolean out, but that wasn't very satisfactory. Then I drew a path in Inkscape and used a knife project to cut the surface and extruded in .1m.

    The shape on this second attempt is a lot cleaner, but there's a lot of funny buckling on the rest of the surface around the cut that I'm not sure how to clean up. Also, I'm not totally sure how to go about beveling the top of the panels.
    5bei6oop8tt3.png
    Edit: closer view of the nose
    zlcr3v58ik5y.png
    Post edited by PhilArt on
    Lizzy777
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