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3D-= MKF random trek thread =- now with v-ray. . . .

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Posts

  • FreakFreak938 Posts: 4,083Member
    yeah that how I saw it in my head.
    Given the angle you could walk on those windows.

    Hmm you know I remember reading that dolphins where used on this ship or at least an oceanic creatures.
    These windows could be used for them to see out of the ship?
    I think Andrew Prober did do a design for such an area on the ship.
    Jayru
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    cetacean ops were somewhere near the saucer computer cores. I think it was mentioned in the show.

    you know looking at the blues. . . .

    9hYrCSb.png
    that area appears to have the layout of those notched rooms flanking the saucer "deflector" a deck above where I am mucking about.

    JayruLoopholeFreakLizzy777
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • BolianAdmiralBolianAdmiral330 Torrance, CaliforniaPosts: 1,770Member
    Cetacean Ops was a silly idea.
  • lennier1lennier1247 Posts: 1,041Member
    Cetacean Ops was a silly idea.

    I certainly prefer the Franz Joseph bowling alley!
  • JayruJayru290 Posts: 367Member
    Cetacean Ops is a beautiful idea and embraces Gene's ideals so well. Shame it was never seen on screen.
    Lizzy777Brandenberg
  • FreakFreak938 Posts: 4,083Member
    MadKoiFish wrote: »
    cetacean ops were somewhere near the saucer computer cores. I think it was mentioned in the show.

    you know looking at the blues. . . .

    9hYrCSb.png
    that area appears to have the layout of those notched rooms flanking the saucer "deflector" a deck above where I am mucking about.

    If above the deck above and you want to include this into your ship. Why not have that area for them.
    Who to say they where only on one deck?
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    They were contained on 2 decks the one in the image and the one above that.
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    Ok all the rooms are in except that large bank. All of these are just the type F room according to the blues. A 2 bed bunkroom. lol. The rear rooms are not even on the blueprints for some reason. Well it could be the "subspace systems room template they used. I just cloned the same layout.
    galaxy-0356.jpg
    galaxy-0357.jpg
    galaxy-0358.jpg
    FreakBillynom8ashleytingerBolianAdmiralLizzy777Brandenberg
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • FreakFreak938 Posts: 4,083Member
    Looking good!
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    WOW 2hrs of no internet and I was going nuts. Sheesh.
    Anyhow took a look at my saucer lip and well clearly not gonna get 10fwd in there as it sits in canon exp as I am comparing it to a episode of TNG. I am considering addressing the curves of the saucer rim but looking at the model my curves look to be at the right ratios. Application of windows should reflect the model. So I will either approach it like how eaves planned or dodge it in in some other way.
    galaxy-0359.png
    Billynom8FreakLizzy777
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • JayruJayru290 Posts: 367Member
    Beautiful looking ship MKF
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    Those set of 3 windows installed with interiors.
    galaxy-0360.jpg
    galaxy-0361.jpg
    On to the next set of insets and then all the windows just outside the phaser strip.
    Billynom8FreakLeoBerlinZoidZillaLizzy777Brandenberg
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • ashleytingerashleytinger530 Central OhioPosts: 571Member
    I love that you're keeping to the beige. ;)
    BolianAdmiralZoidZilla
  • ZoidZillaZoidZilla178 Posts: 11Member
    edited April 14 #1755
    MadKoiFish wrote: »
    galaxy-0354.jpg
    I found this thread wile I was researching the Galaxy saucer for my current project and I wanted to say how impressed I am with your work.
    It also put my mind at ease that I am not the only one that had some struggles to find the right topology, when hull shape and surface details are so at odds with each other. :s

    Finally, someone asks whats going on behind those windows. I was always wondering that myself since I was a little child.
    Two years ago, I set out to make my own "lower deck" quarter scene. First I started out inverting the original quarter set blueprints. To get a general feel, I made a mock up scene that already looked pretty odd in terms space usage. I knew the lower windows were a bit larger than the upper ones but then I took the measurements... I was surprised... I made a second mock up, similar to yours that showed me how frigging huge those windows really are and how much internal volume they rendered unusable.

    I tried a while to make sense of it, I even thought about contacting Andrew Probert and asking him if he had any ideas of how a room there might look like. As he did quite some amazing interior concepts as well. But I didn't want to pester the man.

    In the end I came to the same conclusion as you. the rooms must be two decks high with a gallery.
    Even though this might open a new can of worms, because this could basically create a trench between the inner and outer part of deck 10.

    That said, I love what you came up with, its pretty much how I imaged it as well.

    Another idea I toyed with is that the entire deck 11 window row could be like a promenade deck, similar to the one on DS9. Have a stepped incline from the window line up to deck 10, where people can wander around the ship, have some alcoves to sit, maybe some potted trees here and there. A bit like this:

    0451ece0e3cb1edff8856f579405e7ba.jpg
    But much steeper.

    Basically a reimagining of Proberts saucer rim corridor, which we sadly lost because they punched Ten Forward in there.

    galaxy-observation-deck-concept.jpg

    Keep up the good work, I will follow this thread.
    Post edited by ZoidZilla on
    MadKoiFish
  • lewisnivenlewisniven1062 UKPosts: 237Member
    Well we know that entire families live on board. Madkois mock up shows how larger quarters could work. Obviously in the show we only saw a small set and obvious redresses of that but a family of 4 or 5 for example would never fit in there, so double deck quarters are very possible.
    lennier1ZoidZilla
    1701dproject.blogspot.com
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    Yeah those sternbach blues stuffed a 2 bed room that was similar to the upper decks ones with the bed toward the windows. I guess you could fit one between them thus eating up some of the dead space. They were 2 bunk rooms. But when you scale the space the width of the room is just huge. So I figure instead of those spread out ranch flats these would be multi floor things.

    I lived in a loft of sorts for years it was mixed in with single floor flats as well. My long closet 12X7 and a smaller one in the loft ran along the corridor of the lower floor's hallway. We even had a opening in a wall near the bath that had a huge space above the neighbors flat. Guessing some law made that a dead space. Used it for storage. HAH. Just had to use a stool and crawl through that fire hatch. Anyhow I figured you could use a similar multi floor arrangement like this. Think of quarks bar, it flowed over many decks and even had entrances on those higher decks.

    Now nothing saying these spaces cannot be mini lounges either. Say restaurants or a themed space. I dunno if I will ever put anything in those rooms though. I might map some walls to have some color spill. I still have not yet decided if I will replicate the blue windows and color mix the ship displayed randomly in earlier seasons.

    As for uneven deckage, I always hold that most ships decks are not clear cut levels as shown in MSDs, that they are split level affairs across the hull of the ship. So half decks decks that are 1.5 3.5 4 etc in total. Say like all the Holodecks seem to take up a deck and a half maybe more. So yes there would be spaces in the ship that have a block of area you have to "go around" like on a real ship. (well ocean going ships) Even large buildings do this.

    10 forward and rim windows, I think somewhere there is a altered or a different image of that one above that shows a layout as such for the bar but it was not used due to costs I think. Like it was cheaper to make a smaller ship model and thicken the rim. . . . . than build a false wall. But who knows maybe the undercut would have caused VFX issues and costs.

    I expect a lot of those rim windows are like that park for the refit connie. Cause there is a lot of dead space along the length of the saucer and those inner lifeboats. I will see when I tackle those areas and the upper deck windows. Also I will refer to the blueprints off and on as well and take hints from that. I know not all spaces will be accounted for but almost all windows will have a simple box behind. It is just the way I do ships.
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    OK,

    Gridding out the forward set of these windows before I start to verify locations and position compared to the blueprints. I have yet to find any photos that are crisp enough to show the hull panels and the rear facing cutouts. So I might have to guess and assume things. Granted I am sure the intent they are all on the same level so there are many things that can be inferred. Just distances from panels are the largest issue. Like the large cutout I just did. Still feel that one is slightly "OFF"
    ent-d-3cutoutlayerplan.jpg
    BolianAdmiral
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    Well never really found anything for those rear facing and side facing windows so I will have to fudge it.

    Gotta love max 2019, when it has issues like ortho cutting, gets all wadded up and just gives up. No crash nothing just quits doing what it was suppose to. Have to restart. Does this with more than manual cutting as well. heh Think I have spent more time loading the scene files and opening max than I have modeling.

    Anyhow doing those forward saucer deflector things.
    galaxy-0363.jpg
    Lizzy777FreakBillynom8P5ych0p4thRekkertashleytingerZoidZillaBolianAdmiralBrandenberg
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    Windows laid out, and ready for cutting once I round things off.

    galaxy-0364.jpg

    galaxy-0365.jpg
    ashleytingerlewisnivenJayruBolianAdmiralFreakBillynom8P5ych0p4thLizzy777Brandenberg
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • lewisnivenlewisniven1062 UKPosts: 237Member
    That's looking great. I've prevaricating a bit with those cut-outs under the saucer, they're trickier than they look! I think you've nailed it there though.
    BolianAdmiral
    1701dproject.blogspot.com
  • ZoidZillaZoidZilla178 Posts: 11Member
    MadKoiFish wrote: »
    Well never really found anything for those rear facing and side facing windows so I will have to fudge it.

    Gotta love max 2019, when it has issues like ortho cutting, gets all wadded up and just gives up. No crash nothing just quits doing what it was suppose to. Have to restart. Does this with more than manual cutting as well. heh Think I have spent more time loading the scene files and opening max than I have modeling.
    [/img]

    I feel you, I still work with Max 2010 and that program is as in stable as a ming vase on a pogo stick.
    It crashes all the time and it really doesn't like anything that has to do with cutting, booleans, shape merging or layered modifiers.
    I also have that weird bug that destroys the undo function permanently, so you can't use undo anymore until you reset the program and re-load the scene.

    I also love that I can have the most amazing reference material in like 4k glory but once I put it in max it turns into some pixelated yet somehow blurry mess...

    I think the underside is turning out great, I already start sweating when I imagine that some day I might have to do this myself.^^
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    oh 2010 was one of the most stable versions of max. I only moved off it cause I lost my install disc. Only thing I had massive issues were rigging sliders for automated machine animation and chamfering loose verts. EG verts that only have 2 edges emitting from them. Would crash it randomly. 2019 suffers the same bug.

    Oh yes, booleans I forget if it has smart boolean or not. I only use intersection EG stencil for boolean. So I might miss a lot of the issues. Layers mods I usualy try to avoid them being stacked up as those are caculations and are always prone to creeping corruption. Really when it comes down to it I rarely use anything outside of mirror msmooth bend skew and the UVW suite.

    I had real issues with ram in older versions of mac v10 2010 2013, 8 to 16gigs at times were not enough as they "leaked" on large files. So they would eat the ram then quit or lag so much that it was the same as quitting. Often I had to restart max every hour or so.

    Viewport texturing is shit on any version of max unless your running dual 64core zenons and a TB of ram. Hell even then it probably wwould not work to set it to detailed texture. I am sporting a ryzen 3900x with 32gig ram a high speed nvme drive and it still chunks. I doubt a large video card would fix it as I do not think texture fill is done in the gpu with max.

    Some day with a scene with a lot of huge sharp textures, set the viewport to realistic materials. Likely the pc will lag and crash. Or lag so badly the only solution is to kill max in the taskmanager. I think in 2010 it is in the viewport hud menu. I tried this way back prior to my 4770 and eugh. I only managed it on the 4770k pc when starting a scene and using only ONE orthographic image. But once the mesh started to get complicated the fps plummets int single digits.

    Ok yeah in the viewport you want to see things make sure it is realistic or at least shaded so that it shows solid materials and textures. Click on the rightmost text, this has the drop down that lists realistic shaded consistent wireframe etc. Go to the materials section and wait for it to roll out the additional menu. Choose ralistic materials with maps. Then wait. like 20min. it should after flickering and sometimes dimming to white will show your maps 1 to 1.

    What blows is there is no way to control this by sampling so 2to 1 etc to save memory. There is the display performance tab in viewport config but I never really saw anything improve by increasing that number. default is 512. So this means the largest dimensions on any map is 512pixels. So if you have a 4000X4000 pixel map itll downscale it to 512. You could try to increase this number but it rarely works and in 2019 it barely makes a difference.

    oops a wall of text. . . lol


    As for the cut outs. cut em square and hard edge then chamfer em up. What I do to get the top and bottom edges really round like in the model is to chamfer them and one dege of the side while the side edges are broken. Then I do the side parts and connect the detached verts. This way I can get the rounded sides and tops and bottoms without wonky edges. Being on 2010 you might not have the edge chamfer toys later versions have.

    chamfer-toys-2019.png

    So you'll have to chamfer 2 times and sorta guess how much the first chamfer should be. I still do this at times as the tools cannot do 4 edged rounding. Just odd edge. 2013 I think was one of the best though I have heard 2015 or 16 were the pinnacle prior to mental ray getting fuqed up.

    Here is a screen shot of one rounded up and one rough cut. I will try to document me rounding those ones with the blue cutters in.
    cutouts-d.png
    I would suggest on these not to use boxes to cut but to loop edges along the hull so when you look at them the top and bottom edges are flat to the ships centerline. You can see this in the sample image above the red one is cut using a box as per most existing 3d models and the blueprints. The upper cutouts I switched over to looping as all my horz loops are square to the centerline/world. I probably should redo the old ones but meh. Also really look at the hull grids and decide which way to go. Also the windows I just cut be aware the center one inline with the marker lights is a 2window and 3 window arrangement. Loads of meshes have just a 2X2 there. And seriously ignore placement of lifeboats and these cutouts on the entire bottom of the saucer. The blues and what orthos I have are all wrong.
    ZoidZilla
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • srspicersrspicer225 Posts: 165Member
    Do these help, or do you already have them?
    mox3nc17wk0q.jpg
    np038wwjrorv.jpg
    2neztz7gpxt1.png
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    yup got those. Most are too blown out for any use. Or to grainy. The last photo does show that one windows cutout I mention with the 2X3 sets. Not directly inline with the marker lights but close to. Middle photo I have marked for use when I do final lit rooms pass. But I dunno if I will stick with fixed darkening or have multiple ways to have what is on or off. Thinking I will merge all the window elements as one object and UVW them and use a texture to darken the window glass for rooms with dim or low light to no light. That or map the light emission objects in the rooms. . . . still a ways off before I have to confront that.

    ATM I think I have everything at the alpha site and almost all the photos from the auction. There might be a few photos in small sets that have eluded me. i find it funny how little there is in HQ photos prior to the auction of this model. The TOS connie has a lot as well as the refit. Thinking about it I think the refit is the most documented of the ships.
    srspicer
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • count23count23204 Posts: 619Member
    edited April 17 #1766
    Hey Mad Koi, i thought the grid at least on one side was pretty clear for this photo, it's no help to you?
    bgyq7awspkr9.jpg
    6dcruvxjk5jg.jpg
    Post edited by count23 on
    P5ych0p4th
    Formerly Nadesico.
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    edited April 17 #1767
    All the wrong row of windows. Ones I need ref to are all off the image. And no the grid is not even readable in the first image. I am not trusting that the paint is inline with the grids. Some of them the grids do not align to the paint markings.
    I have a much larger one of that second image and it just shows a small section of the row I am working with. Best shot in that series is a flash image of the whole ship. And of course at that distance and with flash all the fine detail is blasted into nothing.

    As mentioned I have all the known common Christie's photos. Basically if you can find it with google or it is hosted at the usual suspects I have it. Only ones I might not have are something posted to twitter facebook etc. It was on display at the SFM for a number of years too so I had hoped to find some of that other than flash blown camera phone images. (3 or 4) Or some rare pre generations stuff. ATM there are areas that are just going to be by the seat of the pants or use of dodgy reference.
    best photos that show the uppermost cutouts midway and towards the back. Either too far blownout or out of focus. There are others but most of them are so soft focus to be useless. Only use is window count and maybe spacing with the lifeboats.
    eddsc07341.jpg
    eddsc07405.jpg

    Oh also those photos show one thing that the blues show that is wrong too. Something I did as well is penting in the inner face of the windows. There is no taper to the hull around the frame of the window cutout itself. It is another reason I might redo all the lower cutouts. You cannot really see it much in render but if I orthoed it you could tell.

    guess I should do is upload my refs dir somewhere.

    I would love to find some negitive scans of those photos used in the ships mags you see all the "building" images from. I think it was a german mag and Japanese one sadly those the mag printing was really coarse so loads of moire and loss of contrast/detail due to it.
    https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Galaxy_class_model
    buttload of images here. I think a few can be found at slightly higher rez through those image theft sites that force you to join to get through all the pop overs or judiciously reshape the site code.

    sorry kep editing this heh here is a example of one loads of good info as they are doing paint layering and a single coat of one color makes stuff pop but sadly max moire obliterates enough to make it questionable if it is detail or something else or just moire patterning.
    latest?cb=20110918045516&path-prefix=en
    this is the photo that had me guessing much of the blues and 3d orthos were wrong with regards to the grids. Sadly I cannot replicate this without tossing out everything on the saucer at this stage.
    Post edited by MadKoiFish on
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    Here we go the sorta tut on how I do those window boxes. I am gonna guess you can create the inset on it's own Hint cut the outline, extrude and rip off all the unwanted edges. I tend to cut all crossing edges that do not cross the opening at a 90deg to a 90 deg angle or close to as chamfering those results in uneven$hit. This is seen in the image.
    yes a png as it is more than half the jog's size.
    d-cutouts-mkf.png
    NOT really max specific as most apps can use this as it is basic box modeling tricks.
    P5ych0p4thlewisnivenBillynom8ZoidZillaLizzy777
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • JayruJayru290 Posts: 367Member
    I love your tuts, most of what I know about creating in 3D is a result of your advice and tuts over the years.
    MadKoiFish
  • maranmaran66 Posts: 30Member
    Have you tried the Chamfer modifier?
    It has a few more options than the tool has.
    I find it quite useful since you can make a preset if you get a chamfer that works for a certain situation.

    (oh, and don't get your hopes up on bugs getting fixed in Max2020 or 2021 ;) )
    MadKoiFish
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish2628 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,349Member
    edited April 17 #1771
    No, I did not know such a thing existed. As mentioned I do not use modifiers too often as in this case I would be collapsing the mesh constantly.

    Those input options might be useful for complex preset setups. chamfer based on mat id, smoothing etc. I would have to alter my workflow a lot to utilize some of these features. Good to know either way. Damn, there are A LOT of new modifiers in the drop down vs 2013.

    Have to check to see if older versions has this option as it could be a very viable solution for more controllable rounding without a script (last one I tired crashed 80% of the time.)
    Ok bugger it isnt in 2013. There goes that idea of adding it to my options in tuts to those in older versions


    Bugs, max seems to add them as they go instead of fixing them. Been using max for ugh do not even want to say but 2.5r days prior to any REAL modeling tools were in max. As for anything beyond 2019. FfffUCK RENTALWARE. Wont ever be using anything pas 2019 so no biggie to me. Known max is abandonware for the last 9years or so so no loss in that regard. Once 2019 fails me fully I will be moving to another software or quitting 3d.
    Post edited by MadKoiFish on
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
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