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DS9 in High Definition... could it be one step closer?

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  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    I know it's not related to why you posted this image, but I can see why people complained about season 2. The planet looks like crap. The maps are a lower quality than they should be for a 1080p image and you can clearly see segmentation on the planet's edge. Whether or not I agree with the HD overhaul, if you're going to do something, you might as well do it correctly. That's not doing it correctly, in my opinion.

    Which is why I and most people that have commented over on TrekCore and other places, prefer CBS Digital's remastering... Max Gabl makes astonishing planets, I believe they're rendered in Cinema 4D... Not to mention, in Season 2, many shots had terrible compositing, with the deflector dish, etc. all extremely bright... at least, CBS Digital makes shots looks nice, to me...

    Season 1 "Lonely Among Us:"
    http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x07/lonelyamongus_hd_001.jpg

    Season 1 "The Last Outpost:"
    http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x05/thelastoutpost_hd_051.jpg

    Season 1 "Conspiracy:"
    http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x25/conspiracy_hd_241.jpg

    Season 3 "Sarek:"
    http://tng.trekcore.com/bluray/images_s3review/vulcan_full.jpg

    Most people have nothing but praise at CBS Digital's work on Season's 1 and 3... Season 2 was done by HTV, Season 4 is being done by Modern Videofilm... CBS Digital will be doing Season's 1, 3, 5, 6 and 7... I assume in the beginning CBS Digital was going to alternate with HTV... but Season 2's reception wasn't exactly thrilling... I don't know everything involved, but apparently, CBS wasn't too happy with how Season 2 turned out... many people aren't willing to buy Season 2 on blu-ray until CBS Digital "properly remasters it."

    Despite Season 4 being done by another company, Max Gabl is lending his talents for the planets in Season 4...

    Season 2 "Time Squared:"
    http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x13/timesquared_hd_409.jpg

    Season 2 "Peak Performance:"
    http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x21/peakperformance_hd_322.jpg

    In fact, there are some shots, where HTV completely missed elements... the warp engines on the Enterprise for example...

    http://tng.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x21/peakperformance_hd_377.jpg

    Granted, in Season 1, a phaser beam was missing in "Heart of Glory" and there were sound issues in some episodes and CBS Digital corrected all that and sent out replacement discs for free to those who had already purchased Season 1.

    If you order Season 1 now, you'll have no problems, since those will come corrected, obviously.

    Even the CG shots between CBS Digital and HTV are magnitudes different, CBS Digital's is amazing, despite the duplicate nav lights there on the saucer...

    [video=youtube_share;l_3I0hPn0YY]

    But having done the comparison videos for TrekCore for Season's 1 and 2, Season 2's quality was a real let down for me and Season 3 is gorgeous, back to the quality we got with Season 1.
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  • IRMLIRML253 Posts: 1,993Member
    Chris2005 wrote: »
    Even the CG shots between CBS Digital and HTV are magnitudes different, CBS Digital's is amazing, despite the duplicate nav lights there on the saucer...
    lol thanks for pointing out another silly error
  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    IRML wrote: »
    lol thanks for pointing out another silly error

    Well, all things considered, it's not that big of a problem.
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  • IRMLIRML253 Posts: 1,993Member
    I don't have a good reference of the original scene so I can't match it perfectly right now, but this is the sort of thing I'd be looking to do - rendering out the original passes in HD and compositing them with more modern techniques

    the models aren't really high detailed but they seem to hold up alright enough for HD

    Post_00001.jpg Post_00071.jpg Post_00078.jpg Post_00166.jpg
    101514.jpg101515.jpg101516.jpg101526.jpg
  • IRMLIRML253 Posts: 1,993Member
    Chris2005 wrote: »
    Well, all things considered, it's not that big of a problem.
    they all add up
  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    IRML wrote: »
    they all add up

    Well, I'd say these kind of problems make up about 1% of the whole remastering so far... because the blending mode on the warp engines is a minor problem to me, because the shots overall looks amazing.

    I guess that's something we're gonna disagree on, because I'm absolutely thrilled with the remastering, especially when Season 1 came out, because the horrendous pink hue on everything (live action wise) was gone. :D
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  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    IRML wrote: »
    I don't have a good reference of the original scene so I can't match it perfectly right now, but this is the sort of thing I'd be looking to do - rendering out the original passes in HD and compositing them with more modern techniques

    the models aren't really high detailed but they seem to hold up alright enough for HD

    Post_00001.jpg Post_00071.jpg Post_00078.jpg Post_00166.jpg

    Well, I'm sure that's what they're gonna do, but the shot Robert sent TrekCore wasn't all spiced up like your images are. It'd be amazing to see those in motion too, haha.

    I mean, they haven't even started on the DS9 remastering... as they're still working on TNG...
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  • ST-OneST-One188 Posts: 293Member
  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    WOW!

    How are the Defiant's weapons done?

    Are the phasers created separately or are they done in Lightwave?

    Only nitpick I see, is that you can see the JemBug change at the end and fade away...
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  • IRMLIRML253 Posts: 1,993Member
  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    IRML wrote: »

    Ah, did you alter the angles a bit... it seems like the Galaxy Class is further to the left than the other video...

    For the chunks, do you just cut the model into pieces?

    Yea, I was watching it cropped to 4:3, since that's probably what the show will be in. :)
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  • ST-OneST-One188 Posts: 293Member
    IRML wrote: »

    Wow.
    If they at CBS had any sense, they would give the job of recreating the visual effects to you.
    Or, at least, have you show them how to do it properly.

    ;) Yeah, that's gonna happen. ;)
  • IRMLIRML253 Posts: 1,993Member
    one can dream

    my fear is they'll give it to people who think this looks good:
    101619.jpg
  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    Interestingly enough, someone told me and I quote:
    It's a little amusing that in that scifi-meshes thread you started, IRML criticizes the blooming in the CBS-Digital images as "not correct," "very shoddy," and "non-professional," when his images have ILM-style dust bokeh on his virtual camera which is clearly the same kind of re-interpretive affectation he was railing against. Don't get me wrong, I like how his images look and his "Captain's Yacht" video on YouTube looks fantastic... I just wish he'd recognize his double standards a bit better.
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  • IRMLIRML253 Posts: 1,993Member
    1 - nowhere am I 'railing against re-interpretation', quite the opposite in fact, I'm sure I said earlier in the thread that the shots need to be rendered and composited with more modern techniques in mind

    2 - regarding 're-interpretation', a comparison cannot be made between my intentional lens effects and the unintended mistakes in the TNG remasters

    3 - calling that double standards is further retarded, for the reasons I've just explained

    4 - I would probably not put those lens effects in the show if it was for real, but it's not for real is it

    who is this guy?
  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    IRML wrote: »
    1 - nowhere am I 'railing against re-interpretation', quite the opposite in fact, I'm sure I said earlier in the thread that the shots need to be rendered and composited with more modern techniques in mind

    2 - regarding 're-interpretation', a comparison cannot be made between my intentional lens effects and the unintended mistakes in the TNG remasters

    3 - calling that double standards is further retarded, for the reasons I've just explained

    4 - I would probably not put those lens effects in the show if it was for real, but it's not for real is it

    who is this guy?

    Well, that's how he interpreted your comments, since the bloom is an added effect... even JJ's movies have bloom effects... and from what I can see, most people think CBS Digital's looks amazing compared to how Season 2 was done by the first outsourced company... for Season 4, the new company (Modern Videofilm) is being watched over by CBS Digital, from what I know, Season 4 looks much closer to CBS Digital's work on Season's 1 and 3 in quality compared to Season 2's... CBS Digital, from what I know is also doing Season's 5, 6 and 7... so 6 won't be outsourced anymore.

    I don't know who he is, as in *who* he is... I just know his forum username...
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  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish9714 Posts: 5,302Member
    I think everyone is missing the point the render was output to show they think the original meshes stand up to hd use. I fell for it as well because of how this thread was started the images are grossly out of context without reading the article.

    I am not so sure of that the models can stand up to hd. Least not in a way that makes sense when there are so many assets they could obtain or have built that would make a major impact exp in slow pans etc. Maybe it is in context of rendering costs and management.

    The whole point IRML is making is that if they got the hue wrong on the ship or screwed up asepc none of that is as glaringly amateurish than those warp glows. All your counter arguments are the same thing reiterated over and over and will not change the facts that IRML has stated. All the opinions in the world will not change the fact that they should know that those glows are not right.

    You have a point in a comment about the video quality on the live action, and this is primarily the only reasons I am looking at the remasters. I do worry though cause DS9 from memory was far grainer than TNG ever was. I remember more macro blocks in DS9 DVDs due to the grain eating the bandwidth.

    btw fav part of that youtube vid is when that galaxy goes by and kicks up reflected light on the defiant. I am such a damned sucker for bounced light and object interaction.

    I think someone is just butthurt and got some sort of issue with him personally. I mean read the comment excise the fancy wording and you get someone bitching about how IRML is mad about someones idea of what it should look but is doing the same in his images. That really is not the point IRML is making, least from where I sit.

    edit: ok as per usual I am late to the party. . . . .
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  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    Well, the blending mode really didn't stand out to me until it was pointed out and it may be wrong, but most people really didn't notice and to be frank, I doubt they'd care, at least, in the grand scheme of the remastering quality... just to point out, the hue of the ships are changed on purpose, as CBS Digital considers it making them fit more into their environment.

    I never questioned IRML's quality, I'd kill to be able to do photo-realistic stuff like that.
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  • IRMLIRML253 Posts: 1,993Member
    MadKoiFish wrote: »
    I think everyone is missing the point the render was output to show they think the original meshes stand up to hd use. I fell for it as well because of how this thread was started the images are grossly out of context without reading the article.
    are you talking about the nebula renders from the article?

    I think it was unfairly criticised also, not just here but in the comments of the article, it was clearly not representative of how DS9 HD would look, just meant to show that the model is still here and here's a HD render of it

    the nebula cg model is basically a kitbash of the ent-d cg model, and I think it should work in HD purely because the ent-d model can hold up to HD..... providing it's rendered with skill by people who know what they're doing - this is my biggest fear about a remastering and after seeing some of the noobyness on the TNG one I'm not confident

    I'm glad you noticed the light catching on the defiant, this was one of the purposes of my own rendering of it: to see how easy it was to re-render in a new aspect ratio (did anyone notice it wasn't 4:3?), to see how fast the passes rendered in HD, but mainly also to see how well you can embellish the old work with more realistic touches - I did a few simple things like rendering in linear gamma, rendering a fresnel pass to multiply with the spec for more realistic behaviour, improving the interactive lighting with realistic falloffs, adding bounce lighting and such, and rendering HDR
  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    Fresnel pass?

    What exactly does HDR do and accomplish?
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  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish9714 Posts: 5,302Member
    Chris2005 wrote: »
    Well, the blending mode really didn't stand out to me until it was pointed out and it may be wrong, but most people really didn't notice and to be frank, I doubt they'd care, at least, in the grand scheme of the remastering quality... just to point out, the hue of the ships are changed on purpose, as CBS Digital considers it making them fit more into their environment.

    I never questioned IRML's quality, I'd kill to be able to do photo-realistic stuff like that.

    I mentioned hue cause well some of the older footage the ship was pink in the vhs days not as a point of counter argument. I said it as an example of something that can be botched and not stand out terribly. Arguing that statement is foolish and changes nothing in my comment. if anything is strengthens my comment. Not to mention it has nothing to do with what I had said. There is no MAY, COULD be, POSSIBLY, it is FACT the glows are done wrong end of story. I do not give a **** if you think they do not care, again your opinion. Opinions will never change fact.
    Obviously I do not give a **** about what they think.

    Again with some pulled from left field counter argument. I never said anything about IRML's quality. Just linked to a few videos showing some of the lens effects he has done. It was related to the quote, that is until I watched the mov linked a few posts up.
    IRML wrote: »
    are you talking about the nebula renders from the article?

    I think it was unfairly criticised also, not just here but in the comments of the article, it was clearly not representative of how DS9 HD would look, just meant to show that the model is there and here's a HD render of it

    Yes, I am. I had made comments based on this thread only taking what was stated out of context from the article and intent of the image, which was to show that they could holdup to hd. So it makes much of what I said early on a bit silly. "welcome to 1998" well uh DUH it was lol.
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  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    I wasn't arguing that statement, I was simply saying the hue of the ships in the remastered shots are deliberately off color.

    I didn't mean "may" as in might be, I said it "may" in an acknowledging way.

    Well, I'm just saying, most people wouldn't and didn't pick up on that, as people have here, since most people are just thrilled to see the shots in this level of detail for the first time...

    What I said about IRML's quality wasn't meant to be a counter argument, lol.
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  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish9714 Posts: 5,302Member
    Chris2005 wrote: »
    Fresnel pass?

    What exactly does HDR do and accomplish?

    HDR High Dynamic Range look it up in the max help there are a few tuts, or SHOULD be a few in the tuts included with max unless they aborted stuff in newer versions. It mostly affects the object with environmental attributes. IRML can easily go into more techincal aspecs. Watch that Laura Croft vid of his.

    Google will bring up a lot of photography references to it where it is just as it says dynamic range to better mimic the humans eye to see far into the darks at the same time as the lights. Not sure if the information interrelates at all with the 3d equivalent outside of maybe how it affects the rendered output with light.

    Im mainly a modeler not a animator etc so IRML could expand on this more.

    Frensnel pass I think has something to do with the angle and distance of something to the viewer/camera. A type of fall off.

    Ah that's where your question comes from IRML edited his post. Lots of wtf where is wotty stuff going on.
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  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish9714 Posts: 5,302Member
    Chris2005 wrote: »
    I wasn't arguing that statement, I was simply saying the hue of the ships in the remastered shots are deliberately off color.
    And it is information I did not solicit or care about. Again it has nothing to do with my statement since I never pointed out ANYWHERE that hue had anything to do with the existing HD footage. It is used as a subjective example.

    Like; "Small scratches and pits will not affect the overall finish of the paint as much as orangepeel or a large blister." No where in that statement is it implying there is scratches or pits in the paint but that they are less evident of a poor job than more amateurish imperfections as orangepeel or blistering.

    See where I am going here. You keep picking at scabs that are not there.
    Chris2005 wrote: »
    I didn't mean "may" as in might be, I said it "may" in an acknowledging way.
    That is not how English works. "may" is used to imply a possibility. " This MAY be the right choice" " I MAY have an answer for this"
    Chris2005 wrote: »
    Well, I'm just saying, most people wouldn't and didn't pick up on that, as people have here, since most people are just thrilled to see the shots in this level of detail for the first time...
    Again why do we care about them. I never asked for a general opinion of other peoples opinions. Just because they do not know any better does not mean it is alright.
    Chris2005 wrote: »
    What I said about IRML's quality wasn't meant to be a counter argument, lol.
    If it was not, why even mention it when I said nothing that relates to this? It is like suddenly talking to me about rubber dildos in a conversation about spacial dynamics.
    I never questioned IRML's quality,
    This is a argument against something apparently implied. I refer to this as an grammar term not as an "argument" of fists and screaming.

    Do not kill, just learn you do have the drive for it since I would never have the patience to deal with animation, the waiting for renders just kills me.
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  • Chris2005Chris2005675 Posts: 3,096Member
    MadKoiFish wrote: »
    That is not how english works. "may" is used to imply a possibility. " This MAY be the right choice" " I MAY have an answer for this"

    Well, I am rather tired... haven't been to bed in over 12 hours...
    MadKoiFish wrote: »
    Again why do we care about them. I never asked for a general opinion of other peoples opinions. Just because they do not know any better does not mean it is alright.

    I didn't say it was alright... however, CBS sees the comments and they'll likely act based on the comments... so I've been told, not to mention, CBS claims that TNG-R sales will largely affect whether CBS will actually go forth with remastering DS9 and Voyager, but I digress.
    MadKoiFish wrote: »
    If it was not why even mention it when I said nothing that relates to this? It is like suddenly talking to me about rubber dildos in a conversation about spacial dynamics.

    I do that a lot, not the specific subjects you named, lol. The stating something random and/or simply stating something without actually meaning it as a counterpoint
    MadKoiFish wrote: »
    Do not kill, just learn you do have the drive for it since I would never have the patience to deal with animation, the waiting for renders just kills me.

    lol. I imagine you'd be waiting a lot less than I do, based on the work you put into models, my current computer would be like "see ya..." which is one reason I'm saving to upgrade... :D
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  • NanoGatorNanoGator1 Posts: 0Member
    PixelMagic wrote: »
    I have to agree with IRML here. The engine glows are composited with an incorrect blending mode such as Lighten or Unmult. It makes it look unnatural. Warp Grill glows should only be composited with Add blending mode in a linear colorspace. That is the only correct way to do it.

    Quick question: Why Add as opposed to Screen?
  • NanoGatorNanoGator1 Posts: 0Member
    Chris2005 wrote: »
    Interestingly enough, someone told me and I quote:
    It's a little amusing that in that scifi-meshes thread you started, IRML criticizes the blooming in the CBS-Digital images as "not correct," "very shoddy," and "non-professional," when his images have ILM-style dust bokeh on his virtual camera which is clearly the same kind of re-interpretive affectation he was railing against. Don't get me wrong, I like how his images look and his "Captain's Yacht" video on YouTube looks fantastic... I just wish he'd recognize his double standards a bit better.

    The guy who wrote that really does not understand the topic at hand.

    Seriously this is one of the most frustrating debates I've seen here in quite a while.
  • IRMLIRML253 Posts: 1,993Member
    NanoGator wrote: »
    Quick question: Why Add as opposed to Screen?
    I can't speak for pixelmagic with regards to glows as I do them a whole different way these days, but when it calls for that type of layer blending I will always use add instead of screen because screen is a non HDR way of doing things, so it's kind of destructive in a composition where you want to keep the range, add is like the pure way of doing it

    if you were doing optical compositing for real then add is the closest you can get to match that
  • NanoGatorNanoGator1 Posts: 0Member
    Oh interesting. Thanks!
  • VK08VK083 Posts: 0Member
    Chris: Having been involved over the past 2 months with CBS/Paramount, in some discussions both formal and informal, I can tell you CBS does not CARE one bit what is said on TrekCore or this forum, my forum, Facebook etc about HOW they go about shots and if they are gong to remaster whatever. They aren't even going to use TNG-R's sales figures, no great and powerful site (or multiple sites) is going to determine if they remaster the whole kit and kaboodle, right now they are also working on porting Enterprise to BluRay so, it's a pretty forgone conclusion that the rest will be as well. Money in the pocket is money in the pocket as it were, regardless of how it comes at this point..
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