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3DSovereign Suggestions?

jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
edited April 2015 in Work in Progress #1
Amateur 3DS-Max project. Finalizing details of high poly model. Model draws heavily on movie sketch art with many of my own details. Taller super structure, deeper shuttle bay and larger captain's Yacht make more sense than the movie model. I'm taking input before finalizing the design. The plan is to make a lower poly mesh or two and normal maps from the high ploy model and then see what I can do in Mudbox. Eventually, I'll try animations. It's intended to be the USS Excelsior from the "Star Ship Excelsior" Audio Drama. The Escape pods or derived from Enterprise-E escape pod by Trekki in the Download section.
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Post edited by jrhottel on
JES
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  • vnm51vnm512 Posts: 0Member
    Beautiful work jrhottel!
    Though you got render issue at the rear of the saucer by the engines( SciFi_Mesh_9.jpg).
    The upper/rear segment which contains the command bridge is part of the saucer or separated?
  • SchimpfySchimpfy171 Posts: 0Member
    Can you show us clay renders instead of this shiny material you've got applied? I think that would help everyone provide better feedback. :)

    What's that open panel you've got on the front of the saucer?
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    More images in standard material. The render issue is actually one of several mesh issues. The model is sliced by decks that can be pulled apart or hidden. Maybe useful for making interiors. Likewise after making lower poly models this high poly model may be used for extreme close-ups and shots in and out of windows. This model was not designed with saucer separation in mind. That is probably a common sense mod. Has anyone made a saucer separation Sovereign? The hatch is for a forward cargo bay. I'm cleaning up the mesh and working on final details. Now, I'm interested is making clear illustration style renders in Max? Thoughts?

    Scifi_Mesh_12.jpg,Scifi_Mesh_13.jpg, Scifi_Mesh_14.jpg, Scifi_Mesh_15.jpg, Scifi_Mesh_16.jpg, Scifi_Mesh_17.jpg, Scifi_Mesh_18.jpg, Scifi_Mesh_19.jpg, Scifi_Mesh_20.jpg, Scifi_Mesh_21.jpg
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    JES
  • Hunter GHunter G469 Posts: 382Member
    Very nice modeling! It will be a while before I can attempt to to the Sovereign class.
  • VALKYRIE013VALKYRIE013439 Posts: 1,434Member
    looking good!

    only thing is some smoothing issues in general.. looking at the wire frame.. have lines all over the place.. mabe a bit of clean up is in order, then resmooth it? anyway.. just a nitpick!

    what refs are you using? I'm saving up Ent E refs for a future build ( not anytime soon... take me 4-6 months to make this! not keen to start just yet!) between you and IRML .. ya'll do a great sov!
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Yes, I introduced smoothing issues when I sliced the decks, made some mistakes and learned some things. I'm not sure it's worth getting the high poly mesh perfect before making the low poly mesh, this is my first try. The wire frame includes decks crudely extruded into the interior. Maybe I'll hide them and try rendering it again. I split the Drex Files Sovereign schematic up using Photoshop and used it on reference planes in Max. Once set-up it's probably more time and persistence then skill. Let me stress this is my first project of any real complexity. I have a plan but don't get the idea I know what I'm doing.
  • LonewriterLonewriter229 Posts: 1,064Member
    I'm liking this mesh, keep up the good work.
  • RekkertRekkert2432 Buenos Aires, ArgentinaPosts: 2,128Member
    Amazing model, particularly for your first go at a starship (and a rather difficult one).
    I love seeing other people modify established designs and making them their own, so I'll look forward to your texturing process.
    For my finished Trek bridges and other works of mine, visit my portfolio
    Feel free to contact me if you're interested in commissions!​
  • StarshipStarship295 São Paulo - BrasilPosts: 1,858Member
    jrhottel wrote:

    A cargo bay at this place sounds factible, but the way the door is openning looks wrong. It simply donA’t have precendents (if my memory serves) in the long Star Trek History. :) But... since you have windows and escape pods all around, the door canA’t by hidden into the hull when oppening, I Know it. A sollution would be to make the doors to open like the shuttlebay ones, with moveable panels. ;)
  • SchimpfySchimpfy171 Posts: 0Member
    I'd say there's no need for retro thrusters like that because it's generally accepted that the impulse engines function in a way to create reverse thrust when needed. Also, it's usually taken that those vents (what you called scoops) on the pylons are to release something, possibly plasma, in an emergency.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    I'm not committed to the cargo door but I'm leaning that way. My other idea was something like airliner doors. Of course no door at all is also an option.

    Yes, I'm over thinking the impulse engines but why miss an opportunity to do something cool. My understanding, impulse engines are vectored plasma rockets. The plasma is also used to lower the ship's mass. So basically we're using Newtonian physics. Given that, why not retro-nozzles and if not that, what would some type of thrust reverser look like in operation? I once read someone somewhere saying impulse engines didn't have exhaust though. Again, it's all about making something cool. Thoughts?
  • LonewriterLonewriter229 Posts: 1,064Member
    jrhottel wrote: »
    I'm not committed to the cargo door but I'm leaning that way. My other idea was something like airliner doors. Of course no door at all is also an option.

    Yes, I'm over thinking the impulse engines but why miss an opportunity to do something cool. My understanding, impulse engines are vectored plasma rockets. The plasma is also used to lower the ship's mass. So basically we're using Newtonian physics. Given that, why not retro-nozzles and if not that, what would some type of thrust reverser look like in operation? I once read someone somewhere saying impulse engines didn't have exhaust though. Again, it's all about making something cool. Thoughts?

    Here is a complete explanation on impulse drive
    http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Impulse_drive
  • SaquistSaquist0 Posts: 0Member
    jrhottel wrote: »
    Amateur 3DS-Max project. Finalizing details of high poly model. Model draws heavily on movie sketch art with many of my own details. Taller super structure, deeper shuttle bay and larger captain's Yacht make more sense than the movie model. I'm taking input before finalizing the design. The plan is to make a lower poly mesh or two and normal maps from the high ploy model and then see what I can do in Mudbox. Eventually, I'll try animations. It's intended to be the USS Excelsior from the "Star Ship Excelsior" Audio Drama. The Escape pods or derived from Enterprise-E escape pod by Trekki in the Download section.

    Either you've listened to some of my observations on the poor design of the Sovereign Class starship...or you're a designer yourself.

    1- You've altered the arrow head structure on top of the saucer. Instead of being smooth you've given a stair like form. This is important because as it was the smooth downgrade from the bridge to the lower decks meant that nearly the entire arrow head structure was a waste of volume since deck arrangement would limit work space through the transition from deck to deck in the arrow head.

    2- You've abandon Eaves useless conformal curves around the Primary shuttlebay. Every ship has certain amount of wasted space for which equippment and hard point could be placed but this area was hugely irrelevant. The external area made sure there was no external access and made the concept of DOUBLE HULL shape difficult to execute in this area.

    3- The deflector has been given more detail and finishing as it needs. (how ever I do not agree with extending the Sovereign's deflector forward Excelsior II -esque which was another wasteful design. It may prove useful for Sovereign in adding more cargo capacity to the rear now that the deflector (may or may not) occupy as much) But ultimately it's making the hull unnecessarily complicated and intricate.

    4-The additional gangway hatches are necessary. Sovereign had no ability to Dock at structures like DS9 nor a Starbase without them. (However the forward hatch is not necessary and ruins the shape of Sovereign's forward warp field. (minor yes but I would still leave it off. The sovereign is a slow enough) (However I would extend them and hull outboard a bit more from that central superstructure.


    My thoughts on necessary changes.

    1-Sovereign's pylon vents need to point aft not forward
    Their purpose is to flush excess plasma from the system at different points along the PTS.

    2. Instead of that massive center ship shuttle bay. Reduce it and give Sovereign's Stardrive an Impulse Deck if you intend to create a true separation plane.

    3. Removing the considerable amount of tapering on the nacelles was a GREAT idea. There is no reason why the warp coils would graduate down in size aft when clearly the saucer is meant to strengthen the stability of the forward field then why weaken the aft field with smaller coils? At least this way all the coils will have a minimum height that suggest a more appropriate coil size.

    4. (EDIT) Sovereign needs sensor arrays. She is BLIND laterally when every ship over her era is well equipped with some sort of hard point to represent sensors. This is necessary for large ships for short range combat. Sovereign has very very little has hard points go. Even Defiant has a myriad of external hardpoints, who know what they are but at least they are there.

    Sovereign is 2nd as the Federation's worse design only to the Prometheus Class. Both are indicative of art and not design.
    Look at ships such as Galaxy and Intrepid for the best examples of design.

    *NOTE: a shuttle bay should never be on a separation plane. It complicates reintegration by restricting the dock hard points over a sizable area. Shuttle craft would be subject to static electrical discharge during separation of reintegration. Large open non supported areas (shuttle bays and cargo bays) can warp the shape of the hull which isn't ideal for fitting two pieces snugly. Ideally you'd would want hull to hull contact with the area well supported from torsional stresses to assure as little flexing as possible.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Saquish,

    Thanks for your thoughtful input. I agree, the sovereign is a fanciful design. Too fanciful to sort everything out. I'm in discussion with the writer now about the separation plane. I'll make it all work somehow but It may look hideous when separated. I'm not happy with the docking ports yet. I really want the forward one but it's just to ugly to stay. I had thought the ports could telescope out a short distance and modeled them in the would be stowed position. The new design should imply that kind of functionality.

    I saw a Kennedy Shipyards illustration that identified the entire length of the second hull about halfway up and about the height of a deck a a lateral array. It's pretty clearly modeled on mine. Would you do something different in modeling senors? Can you describe what you mean by hard point? I'm guessing you mean a gun emplacement. I'm looking at mods to weapons configuration generally. Here is what the writer has given me to work with:

    Weapons :
    Phasers :
    16 Type XII Phaser Arrays

    Torpedoes :
    8 launchers: 1 forward turret; 3 forward tubes; 4 aft tubes.
    Photon: 400
    Quantum: 300

    Armour & Shields :
    Multi-Layered-Shield-System (MLSS)
    Regenerative Shields
    Ablative Armour

    Ideas welcome for modeling any of the above? I'm not a fan of ablative armor and don't relish modeling it.

    Thanks Saquish and thanks all.
  • SaquistSaquist0 Posts: 0Member
    A hardpoint is another word for attachment point. It's an aviation term that doesn't just mean weapon point.
    In naval terms it doesn't really exist but in this case I mean features aside from the hull itself and portholes. Because spacecraft have tend to have fuselages and formed bodies and skins like aircraft the term has been carried over in gaming.

    intrepidhardpoints.jpg
    defianthardpoints.jpg

    Intrepid has a multitude of familiar hard points but Defiant's are not as familiar and there is quite of few of these features. But the idea is that they have a specific purpose. Hatches, Long Range Sensors, Short Range sensors, Field Enhancers (Intrepid), Flush Vents, Bussard collectors, transporter arrays, Sensor Palettes, Lifeboats, thrusters, impulse engines, phaser, torpedo tubes.

    And then there are Wet-points umbilical attachments for say power, coolant, gas and fuel. Galaxy and Intrepid has these points along it's spine (covered by hatches)


    The Docking Ports
    Indenting the Docking Ports could be another way of having them and reducing their profile and then having them telescoping out when in use. (this complicates the double-hull design too) but it's all in how seriously you take your design.

    Ablative Armor
    I don't recommend it on a ship this size. Armor has to be complete and whole to be truly effective and ships this big have too many window ports to rap the armor around. Sovereign definitely doesn't have ablative armor in any significant portions. That fits Defiant because there are very, very few windows. Even Intrepid's ablative armor covered over absolutely everything. The Klingons are another good example or armored vessels. Essentially this is a "Can't have your cake....and eat it too" You either have to eat the windows to get the armor or scrap the armor to have the windows) Patches of armor are possible...but the look wouldn't be very elegant. You'd have to be willing to recreate Sovereign in somewhat different way. I don't think it's a bad thing because Sovereign is a Battleship..but John Eaves married the idea of a Cruiser Explorer with a Warship and I don't think that was a good thing.

    Torpedo Tubes vs Turrets.

    Torpedo Tubes are accelerators for launching torps at high speed. The concept here is if you have turrets then you have the ability to shorten the barrel considerably and then at that point...there is no need to have tubes. The existence of both implies that the Torpedo tubes either carries MUCH more powerful (larger) or propel far faster than a turret.

    Turrets also would carry less ordinance (few torpedoes) The locations that the tubes is VERY IMPORTANT. You're not going to channel Anti-matter through the ship during battle conditions away from their containment vessels. If the line breaks it's an immediate disaster. Star Trek doesn't really tell us how this is done even for torpedo tubes. There might be a central distribution point above the reactor in Galaxy and Intrepid that shoots the antimatter to the tubes in burst. But turrets would ad more routes. Sovereign has a great number of turrets in sections that aren't engineering related such as the saucer.

    To be honest there isn't a rule here..but there certainly should be.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Basically, I have a single quantum torpedo turret on the lower saucer and multiple conventional tubes in the stardrive. I must be confused, you say the Sovereign has a great number of turrets. I need to spend some time watching the movies but I can only think of the one turret, (lower saucer forward of the yacht.) Probes are likely launched from the same location. Questions: What does a turret actually look like? Does it look like a tube from the outside? To me the term applies to a rotating emplacement or a defensible fortification. Thanks again.
  • SaquistSaquist0 Posts: 0Member
    These are the turrets of the the modified Enterprise E

    enterpriseemodification.jpg

    johneavesenterprisedeta.gif

    johneavesnemesisdetails.jpg

    John Eaves had to modify the Enterprise because his initial design lacked hardpoints for the proper deployment of weapons. But because he didn't want to redesign the ship he put turrets. So now the Trek has to deal with this contradiction like the many of others that already exist in Trek.

    Normally I'd say these aren't really either turrets or Tubes. Most of them are on a fix rotation but they can pivot up and down. So they are short of odd in that sense and they are certainly too short to be "tubes" such as the the tubes at the bottom of the ship on Sovereign or the 20 meter long tubes on Galaxy.

    But what else are they. They have to turrets because they are short weapon modules.
  • bernard guignardbernard guignard171 Posts: 0Member
    Very nice work there :thumb:
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Beautiful! Invaluable help Saquist. Thanks.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    New images: docking port changes, saucer separation and torpedo turrets. Of course, this is all a work in progress. What do you think?Docking_Port_X2_Turret.jpg, Saucer_Seperation_1.jpg, Saucer_Seperation_3.jpg, Saucer_Seperation_2.jpg, Turret_X1.jpg
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    JES
  • BlueNeumannBlueNeumann353 Posts: 1,094Member
    I can so easily picture my arrowhead on top of that drive section (and I love how far it extends, right to the captain's yacht.

    Okay, my only actual issue is that little trench on the underside of the saucer section, I feel like that isn't there on the actual ship.
  • vnm51vnm512 Posts: 0Member
    I like the way you made the torpedo launchers, absolutely fit to the main model. The saucer separation also a good idea, guess you'll make mech panels on the separated surfaces.
  • SuddenFrostSuddenFrost171 Posts: 0Member
    Saquist wrote: »
    4. (EDIT) Sovereign needs sensor arrays. She is BLIND laterally when every ship over her era is well equipped with some sort of hard point to represent sensors. This is necessary for large ships for short range combat. Sovereign has very very little has hard points go. Even Defiant has a myriad of external hardpoints, who know what they are but at least they are there.

    I think the idea was to have all of the sensor arrays concealed behind the dark hull plates on the arrowheads, which we'd never seen before on Federation ships. I could see that as a plausible advance in technology, and it would explain why so much of those areas aren't full-height decks.
  • SaquistSaquist0 Posts: 0Member
    I think the idea was to have all of the sensor arrays concealed behind the dark hull plates on the arrowheads, which we'd never seen before on Federation ships. I could see that as a plausible advance in technology, and it would explain why so much of those areas aren't full-height decks.


    Sovereign already has dorsal and ventral short range arrays. But item 4 for was specifically lateral arrays.

    tumblrm7p6o9atxk1rzu2xz.jpg

    sovereignsensorarrays.jpg


    On the top view behind the bridge (just like with Galaxy...only styled with swept lines
    On the Botom in Green...aft of the Turret (similar to Galaxy's Dorsal) and swept back.

    John Eaves imitated these features but didn't know what they were. (or the person that detailed the model wasn't in sync with Eaves design. But to tell you the truth I think it was Eaves that added this detailing because most of the detailing has swept lines just to complement the shape of the model itself.

    Ultimately to correct this I would add blocks of same type of arrays around the top edge of the saucer section just above the first set of windows. I would probably block them like life pods with a set (non swept over course) at the starboard bow, port bow and and and aft set port and starboard.

    Seeing as the creator is adding Separation I would add a dual set on either side of the Star Drive Nose (since that angled area is doing nothing) and a set along the spine of the ships hump.

    But the ship still need an Aft Array.

    ----
    Sovereign shows NO physical sign of advancing technology like Intrepid, Defiant and Galaxy which use Arrays and Sensor Palettes and different features for phaser canons, the separation feature or variable field geometry. I've always said that Sovereign is nothing more than a streamlined Galaxy Hull with out the useful and strategic weapon placements. It's supposed to replace the Excelsior...but the Excelsior does a far superior job as a Hull. (Excelsior has prodigious amounts of phaser placements and torpedo tubes. The hull is stocky and sturdy and well suited for high warp. Only down side being a shallow placed PTS) Sovereign's tech: Quantum Torpedoes & Regenerative Shielding (seen in Nemesis) can be better applied to ship like the Galaxy and Defiant. But the shielding may have more to do with Sovereign's power plant.

    -Sovereign could never replace the Galaxy.
    Galaxy's Alpha Strike ability is still unmatched (shame we didn't see that in the war)
    Faster than Sovereign
    Largest crew accomodation in the Fleet 15,000 max.

    Sovereign looks pretty but I don't see it's usefulness to a fleet.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Saquist, Actually, I'm not fully understanding your analysis of the sovereign's short comings. Smaller, lighter armament, and terribly inefficient use of hull volume? That it maybe a failed design could clean up some plot history though. I missed the sensor detail you highlighted on the ventral saucer. I did put similar detail on the dorsal saucer but it had no significance to me at the time. If you would are willing you roughly illustrate some of your sensor placement suggestions, I'd likely implement them. This thread is to gather suggestions of all kinds. I'll list you in any way you see fit in credits using this model. I should list Eaves in some fashion as well though I suppose "there be dragons." Thanks
  • SaquistSaquist0 Posts: 0Member
    What Sovereign Should Be

    -Sovereign is a Fortress Style Cruiser. Or DREADNOUGHT It's size gives it the ability to suffer massive damage and remain operational. This also means that like the Galaxy (or more so) that Sovereign should be heavily redundant in sub-systems. (Impulse, Warp Cores, Phasers, Torpedoes, Long & Short Range Sensors, shields, deflectors etc)Heavily Armed, Heavily Armored and heavily shielded.

    -Federation ships are both cruisers AND Fleet Role Ships. As a cruiser Sovereign can operate independently with fuel for long durations and the firepower to overwhelm any single enemy ship. It's also a stout patrol vessel for the Border Worlds of the Federation and provides relief support to yards, docks and starbases in the way of crew and supplies. ( Although Galaxy is better in this capacity.)

    In a Fleet Sovereign is your heavy hitter. If space combat was depicted properly Sovereign and Galaxy would be Long Range Phaser platforms. (Thus the Huge phaser arrays) They would either fortress in place like a space station and punish the enemy at long range. (remember the USS Phoenix) Offensively both ships should be able to release massive alpha strikes but Sovereign doesn't have the multi capacity tubes that the Galaxy has. It does have Quantums but clearly not enough.


    (While destroying a Borg Cube may not be possible with one of such class certainly 3 or 4.)
    In other words a FULL SIZED DEFIANT

    What Sovereign Actually IS


    Sovereign seems to be a more powerful Galaxy Class. Instead of multi torp tubes, turrets & Quantum weapons. Regenerative shields and substantial Auxilary Power Units (Impulse Fusion Reactors) to operate without a Warp Core. Apparently no separation ability, (which some say isn't useful but I actually value in emergencies), No lateral sensors or aft sensors, poor phaser coverage (orignal design), No outboard starbase docking ability and no ablative armor (which isn't possible with the multitude of windows)

    sovereignversion1.png

    Forgive the crudeness of the CAD gradients..
    In what ever form you choose for the sensors I would start with this placement.
    Reason for this placement: This surface of the ship point's more laterally than any other part of the saucer (save for some awkward areas of the under side. Placement offer cover for the saucer both behind and forward and cluster the sensors in the same construction area as the thruster assemblies yet spaced apart in the case of one array is destroyed the others will maintain the same coverage.

    -I removed the windows from the flat plane on the saucer. That just makes no sense to have skylights for regular crew on a ship like this.

    -The Blue Grey represents Armor patches. I've thoughtfully placed the armor near the center of the saucer to protect the primary computer cores. Although not shown the outer edge of the saucer where the thrusters are in the blue-grey area would also be armor. Any place that would have windows or life boats would be ordinary hull composition.

    -The arrow head is gone aswell. Instead another level of the superstructure for which the bridge and Flight Traffic Control rest.

    P.S
    No need for any credit these are just ideas and I share them freely.
  • jrhotteljrhottel9 Posts: 0Member
    Thanks again, I'll weigh the options and see what the writer thinks. Any Trek fans should visit the audio production website, http://www.starshipexcelsior.com/ or http://www.facebook.com/STExcelsior
  • SaquistSaquist0 Posts: 0Member
    Is the audio downloadable. I could walk and listen to this tomorrow.
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