Greetings!

Welcome to Scifi-Meshes.com! Click one of these buttons to join in on the fun.

Picard [Spoilers]

24

Posts

  • evil_genius_180evil_genius_1801843 Posts: 9,995Member
    Its' a shame the inside layout of Rios's ship is so stupid, because I really like the exterior. It's almost like they blew their budget for the interior on the control panel and surrounding area, so they just stopped working on it.
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish3497 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,514Member
    dunno some of it could be seen as spoilers!
    Have to argue the holo "crew" the guy is using is private ship use so it could be banned, but well.

    Vaping crap, hipsters, they run the show so yeah. EMH ENH what next a EEH ESH?

    Sunglasses were wtf, maybe she has some deranged idea of cool, or think it is relevant in some way.

    Ship, too many glow things on the back, looked like it was designed by a 12yr old. moer engines moer better. Agreed the interior is super stupid. Bits of it that looked good I think were all scavenged from STD sets. Some int walls looked familiar. I would at least put a wall around the command stations and navigation to at least keep you from flying about in that huge space when the inertial dampeners go. BUT that guy seems to have a deathwish, or it is just some lazy way to show look HARD BOILED, guy is so hard he is flippant about shrapnel.

    Oh btw most of the ship int is set replacement, least the backdrop appears to be when they are at the front of that chamber.

    They keep saying artificial life so it is not just robotic handy humanforms with a smart AI based server but a Machine life form, machine slaves. It just does not work.

    Uh all this wealth reference of lack of property etc. Maybe she was referring to status and not her mobile home looking analogue.

    Also a bit a miss due to the future handed to our 80s and 90s heros. No happy end for Picard, least the books let people marry have kids etc. Lead real conclusionary lives even though it was one mega disaster after another then a nightmare of BS due to jj canon and STD making a mess of things.

    Said I was done with it but was told the ep was night and day from ep2, it was so, so. Loads of off franchise stuff but meh.

    Also it was Picard or some wonky cooking show based on Sweden. Well heh still watched it. Hotdogs in mash with shrimp mayo and other oddities I cannot eat. T_T

    preview for ep4 looked meh. "whites only" etc. Seems like the writters are swinging with bludgeons and stuck in the early 60s. Maybe too much exposure to 4chan and a lack of understanding of meme abuse.
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    edited February 2020 #34
    For starters, it should be noted that Raffi was actually doing drugs, not just vaping. "Snakeleaf"

    I view Raffi and Rios as career Starfleet officers who lost everything and are trying to cope with the pain. That's why they're intentionally doing self destructive things. It's not entirely unknown in Star Trek....

    ...On a plot point note, I'm highly suspicious of Dr. Jurati's "timely" arrival at Piard's residence, and at the incompetence of the assassins. They can't shoot worth a damn and are supposed to be from the Tal Shiar? I think their appearance was a convenient ruse to get Jurati in Picard's good graces as a spy. Perhaps Commodore Oh wants to find Maddox also and is using Picard to do it. We'll see if that theory holds water as the series progresses.
    Chris, So she hit the bottle and became a druggie because she was fired. I can get that, but if she wants to get a high. There is a fair easier way to get the drug into your blood supply so the hit happens faster. Use a hypospray.

    Roddenberry was dead against smoking on Trek, he even had the big cigarette companies asking him to put their products in his show.
    He told them where to go, so by having these characters smoking is a big F-you to him.
    You want to show they have hit rock bottom, there are far better ways to do it than smoking.

    As for her being fired, that does not make any senses. She was working with Picard and came up with the revised plan to save the Romulans.
    But it was Picard who was the one that offered his resignation, when they did not take the plan. So why is she being fired?
    She was doing her duty and because Picard did not accept Starfleet desertion on the matter he quite. She did nothing wrong to warrant her being kicked out of the service as well. That would not happen in today military and if it happen in the private sector, the company would find itself being sue for unlawful dismissal. (I don't know what the law like in the US, but that would be the case in the UK.)
    If she kicked up a stink when she saw the CNC about not taking the plan and accepting Picard registration, they could have reprimanded her, or she could have resigned as well.
    In which case she was not fired, she Quite and that would not be Picard fault.


    Did anyone else notice that when Rios's was talking about the ship he served on Picard did not recognised the name of it.
    Then Rios stated he would not know it as the ship was off the books and anything to do with it was wiped from Starfleet ala Discovery or a Section 31 ship.

    As for the Dr. Jurati, I agree her turning up like that is a little to "Timely."
    It has been mention in the leaks that she will be reviled to be Trans. Now me personally, I have no issue with this, but I got a feeling they are going to make a big song and dance about it. Reason being to be diverse.
    Again I have no issue with being diverse, Trek has always been since the begging. Now if I was going to do this I would have it as a throw away line because in the 24th century no one would care if she is Trans. But for the here are now to be diverse I would have hired a Trans actress to play the part and leave it at that.

    There is a theory flying around that because she use to be a man it will turn out she is actually Maddox. I don't buy into that one, she is shorter than Maddox is and changing sex would not change height.
    Post edited by Freak on
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish3497 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,514Member
    Speaking of hypo sprays, why a squirt bottle? Even the sound they coulda dubbed over that. I do agree if she was doing some orchid drug I would expect a neater way to take part in dosing oneself other than vapes. Again hipster element.

    I think the "I am fired" is relating to being taken off that particular mission. She probably sabotaged herself in being belligerent about being reassigned. So far her character seems to have such flaws. I do not think it was a look I am homeless living in squaller and ruined. More like whining and pissing cause her subject of focus at that point was dead ended because of Picard. Well, least I hope this was the inflection. hah.

    Her quality of life if this is the same TREK as we know means nothing to her status at starfleet. She chose to live out there she chose to live in what she was. But these are part of the flaws in the show. Stuff that looks Ok on the surface but falls apart in a deeper level.
    Hehe should spoiler tag this thread! though talk about it is less news of trek than us pissing about picard. Guess we should be happy to have something to piss about. . . . could be said it is part of the fun of it all.
    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • sorceress21sorceress21263 Posts: 574Member
    edited February 2020 #36


    I would imagine that in the 24th century it probably won't be all that difficult to change every physical aspect of one's body and in a far more natural way then the cosmetic only procedures of today. From gender to height it'll probably be done thru direct genetic modification vs. the physical alteration of body parts which is something already in the speculative research phase. Also it's already possible to surgically alter your height even today.

    However, I doubt "trans" will exist at all. While I don't buy into the purely fear driven notion that it's solely a mental illness vs some folks being born that way, I do think it'll be more likely that science will understand what causes it and create a preventative treatment to keep people from having to deal with it at all. I cannot imagine that it's an easy thing to go thru for people today or in the future.

    Hell if there was a pill that could cure my case of lesbianitis I'd take it so fast it'd make your head spin. It's not because of something stupid like shame or self-dislike, it's just that it would make life a tad bit easier. No matter how accepting the world becomes LGTBQs will never be average. We'll always be a odd minority and everyone would be preferred to be thought of as a non-social pariah.

    Again, this is a sad interjection of unnecessary social politics into a science fiction show that just doesn't need it. The LAST thing I want is a lesson on social acceptance in flipping scifi! Frankly it's insulting that the Liberal tools that have ruined all things TV and Film are arrogant enough to believe they have a clue what LGBTQ people wanna see. You'll notice a lack of trans and gay people screaming out about there needing to be more of us on screen.

    We are not a "victim" class despite what the snowflakes in Hollyweird thinks. In public especially, most mature LGBTQ people are overtly private about our sex lives even more so then straight people (obvious exceptions being Pride Parades and Gay bars).

    In the 24th, I really think things will be more along the lines of everyone's body will just be a "sleeve" Altered Carbon style anyway or something more like The Ghost in the Shell. On this point as well the beginnings of research is already happening to make full-body transplants a reality via consciousness transfer. That will essentially make "trans" people extinct.

    On today's episode...I'll say Jeri Ryan showing up has renewed my interest..Buwahahahahaha
    Post edited by sorceress21 on
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    edited February 2020 #37
    Just finished watching the latest episode.

    Personal I think it was the best episode so far. Still did not really progress the story that much and we are in the 4th episode out of 10.
    At this rate the last few episodes will be a made dash to finish off the story unless they are planning to drag it into the next season.
    Which will only scream "LOST" mystery box style story telling.

    I did have a few issues with the episode, like the "Ninja Nun's". Yes I know give TOS and TNG and DS9 we really don't know a lot about Romulan way of life, expect they are secretive and ruled like a dictatorship.
    It stated in the Episode that the nun's are the enemy of the Tal Shiar and therefore the old Romulan Government. (This changed to the peoples government at the end of Nemesis.) They would have been hunted down 20 years before this episode, so they would have had to live in secret like the Reunification People that Spock was helping.

    But all in all it was a good episode.
    Now the Question is, is it a good Episode because Jonathan Frakes Directed this Episode? (After all he did direct the best episode of Discovery to date and some of the Best episode of Trek.)
    Or was it because this is the first episode that Michael Chabon wrote on his own?
    Or finally because this was the first episode where he took over as Showrunner?

    Only time will tell.

    I agree with @sorceress21it was good to see Jeri Ryan.
    Though I would have loved it if when Picard say "7 of 9?!"
    and she returns with "Locutus!" instead of "Picard!"
    Post edited by Freak on
  • sorceress21sorceress21263 Posts: 574Member
    edited February 2020 #38
    Freak wrote: »
    Just finished watching the latest episode.



    I agree with @sorceress21it was good to see Jeri Ryan.
    Though I would have loved it if when Picard say "7 of 9?!"
    and she returns with "Locutus!" instead of "Picard!"

    HAH! That would have been great! "You owe me a ship Locutus!" What a missed opportunity!

    I also have been thinking about the whole "plot" of Picard thus far. The Romulan supernova angle is totally absurd. The Romulan Empire prior to this event which we know little about, even after the mess of the Reman coup is one of the most powerful Empires we've seen in Trek ever. So we are to believe that a supernova would bring them down? That they lacked the capability to evacuate their people from Romulus without the help of the Federation? Not only that but remember the nature of the Romulan society: Deeply Communist and totalitarian, thousands of planets under their rule...If they felt it meant their demise they would simply have evacuated key members of society and the Senate and left everyone else to die. That would have been the very pragmatic response we've come to expect from Romulans.

    I absolutely LOATH the way the producers have "humanized" the Romulan characters in Picard. It took me a bit to even recognize that Picard's housemates were a Romulan and a Reman.

    While this has been the best ep so far (Directed by Frakes), the show has failed to honor canon on nearly every level. Frankly it would have been a better show had they gone with totally different actors and placed it in the alternate "Discovery" universe and explained how in the world Discovery is hard canon which I'm sure will end up being some silly time travel thing.

    I'll watch the show because there's nothing else really on, but I doubt I'l ever really like it that much and I think they have completely failed to deliver us a canon series that pays homage to the dedication of the fan base.

    Frankly I'm thrilled that we are 2 days away from the season premier of Outlander 20 times more then I was looking froward to Picard...that says a lot.

    Bottom line..Picard sucks a high hard one.

    Post edited by sorceress21 on
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish3497 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,514Member
    The silly point of JJ supernovae was it was a galaxy threatening event. So it apparently would wipe the entirety or most of the empire from the universe. So the silliness is something that is usually contained within a system, maybe 3times that systems dai is threatening multiple planets and systems. The whole handwavium red matter is what stopped it consuming the rest of the galaxy. Spock was just too late to save the Romulans themselves. Which again seems at odds as Spock made it out like it was a sudden issue, not something you can build massive fleets of ships for.

    This is what had me irked all through trek09, it was not implied the fall of the romulan home system threatened the galaxy but the supernovae in of itself did. Yeah there are mega novae etc but you could not live on a planet or in system around those stars. So clearly romulus and remus orbited a similar star to our sun.

    BUT, so far you cannot rely on any of that being canon. Already they have broken their own created canon unless things like Data being dead/failed imprinting took place AFTER the countdown story. There are other little odd things missing from stuff set in 09. (to think that was 10yrs ago already)

    As for the last ep slow, and mostly pointless mysticism and retarded levels of white man being black man BS that was unneeded. Even to the point of the antagonist being a black man. All they could have done was have Picard sit and want some tea or something and get snubbed, could have done less with the COLOREDS sign, stepping on, etc.

    Acting in this one was some of the worst too.

    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    edited February 2020 #40
    I didn‘t write anything on the last couple of episodes but that last one just annoyed me, so here‘s some thoughts on it:

    To each it’s own, I guess … but I must say, I‘m surprised by all the positive Reviews I‘m seeing. That episode was – in my eyes, of course – just terrible. Probably the worst episode of any Star Trek Show. I‘d have to sit down and structure my thoughts, to do justice to how much I don‘t like this episode. And I will not do that just to be called names on the internet. However I try to explain at least some points:

    The Opening: Tits and torture. Do we really need that in a Trek show? The Original Series got successful by children watching it in syndication. And even when it got dark, as in later seasons of DS9, it got so thematically, not in terms of shock value. For example: Nog loses a leg and has to deal with the realities of war … what we don‘t see, is his leg exploding in our faces.

    And why kill off Icheb for no reason at all. Even if you have seen Voyager just recently there was almost no emotional impact to that scene. Maybe with the original actor but I doubt, that would have changed anything

    Freecloud: I makes sense, that a planet like this CAN exist in the Star Trek Universe. But from an aesthetic standpoint, it just shouldn‘t. It just doesn’t feel like Star Trek at all. And those silly pimp outfits and Accents are just a terrible attempt at Humor, that don‘t fit the characters at all.

    Rafis Story: That came out of nowhere and by that completely failed to make any emotional connection. Generally I hate her storyline. Of course substance abuse still exists in the 24th century. We‘ve seen it in DS9 („Valliant“) … but I do believe, that a „socialist utopia“ like the federation would have some form of healthcare, to deal with that. Or in general you‘d think, that Starfleet wouldn‘t just abandon their officers like that.

    Especially when looking at the Democratic Primaries at the moment, there was a chance here, to show what socialised medicine could be at it‘s best, instead of telling a tired old story of substance abuse, you could tell in any show and which has been done in pretty much every other show.

    It‘s generic drama for the sake of having drama. Say what you want about Genes idea of the characters not having internal conflicts and often not even knowing what the problems we face today actually were (Uhura not knowing what racism is for example) ... it forced the writers to be creative, when they wanted to tackle a certain subject matter. They couldn‘t recycle a storyline from another show and just set it in space.

    Money: speaking of socialism. Now I‘d describe myself as a capitalist. I think that it‘s one of the best things ever to happen to humanity. However Star Trek or at least most of the federation was always depicted as a post scarecety society. That is an interesting concept and there have been great books written about the economics of that universe. However here, they‘re constantly talking about money and wealth, like that is normal. Rafi even feels envy when talking about Picards estate. It shouldn‘t be normal for those characters to feel this way. The currency of the Federation has always been prestige. You work to better yourself and in that way become successful in your given field. If you want to make a show about Money end 20th Century socio-economic Problems, do so – DS9 did so numerous times – but here it‘s just written like a scene that could be set any time in any show.

    Seven: If you want to make her a lesbian or bisexual, do so. It kind of makes sense given, that she would have discovered it in kind of a logical way instead of being pressured into something buy societal norms. But have it at least serve the story somewhat. It was kind of just there because female villains in Star Trek now have to be lesbians I guess (I.e. the emperor in discovery) — but my bigger problem is making her a coldblooded murderer without any way for her character to come back from that. That feels like a betrail of the seasons of developement she had in Voyager.

    Finally Maddox: why have him in this at all if just immediately kill him off? I expected at least a little bit more than a macguffin …

    Those are my thoughts. Maybe someone get‘s something out of them. To me the episode just seemed so intent of not being Star Trek. And not so much in a way, where „it killed my childhood“ by „Destroying“ what the shows were, but by changing everything that actually made them different from other shows in the first place.

    Do with that what you will 😁
    Post edited by P5ych0p4th on
    sorceress21
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    @P5ych0p4th.
    I think you hit the nail right on the head with that.

    Even though I hate the look and sound of the Phasers firing, (Sound Effect and looks come straight out the JJ films) I can look past that.
    But it the Fing Story they are telling here that so not Trek, and it been done before and better.
    It could be done as a very decent Trek story but the writers just don't have the talent to do it.
    What we are getting is beyond and Fing Joke.

    I am sure that show is getting more viewer than Discovery, but with what we are seeing here. I am sure they are dropping like flies.
    P5ych0p4th
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    @Freak ... yeah. As for the Phasers: The one the reptilian Guy uses looks incredibly cheap. As did all the Uniforms we‘ve seen until now. I wonder, if that’s just the better cameras or if the prop-department just does a bad job sometimes.

    I mean, Enterprise and the movies were in HD and - aside from some wonky cgi - they never looked that cheap 🤔
  • MadKoiFishMadKoiFish3497 Right in the plumsPosts: 4,514Member
    No the dressings props etc are cheap. If I was shooting this all of the echeb scenes would have been reshot due to the broken prosthetic on Sevens hand. Those guns in the bar ugh some cheap Chinese dollar store special from the 80s. Diving into the leftovers of the local 3d print library and some superglue and leds out of a tire store keychain would look better.
    Also compare the production photos and stuff for older trek series. Stuff stood up to pro film cameras it would hold to todays 4k cameras if they used them. The cgi is clearly not in 4k or even likely 2k. Some of the full scene efx looked like lancos 720p upscaled stuff.

    Ep was eh, all highly predictable. Even the nonsensical killing of a ex lover. (seven or mrs sucked in eyeballs.) The lol Romulan is pointless.

    Sorry I want humor I will watch Red Dwarf reruns.

    Hate to say it in some ways I would rather watch STD over this.
    CBS just needs to fire everyone and contract out or just put it to sleep and go about making teen zombie flicks or ronery vampires as that is the level they are writing for.

    Even the worst of ENT or VOY pales in comparison. I dunno why I keep watching it. Maybe it is hope or to just see how much worse it will get.

    Trek is going the way of Doctor Who, something else I have quit watching. Female Doctor, ok, behaviors, morals, and casting,-no, garbage. Doctor Who was getting bad with the stilted in crowd morals and attitudes but the last 2 seasons are the worst.





    Each day we draw closer to the end.
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    @MadKoiFish .. yeah. I wonder, what the problem is though. The show is written like the writers have no Idea, how the universe that the show is set in works. You‘d barely have to change anything, to make this a contemporary drama series about an old general out to save the daughter of an old Friend.

    I guess, that‘s, what infuriates me so much. It‘s not that those new shows are bad but then writers don‘t seem to be willing, to understand the universe even a little. There doesn’t seem to be a series bible. Something a show like this desperately needs.

    It‘s the simple things, that are missing. For example, that 24th century humans have a way of talking, that is different, than what you hear on TV. I remember actually learning English by watching TNG, because they spoke a really deliberate easy to understand English, that you usually only found in Textbooks. Not on TV or in movies. Since discovery, that is completely gone.

    Star Trek often had new writers, that hadn‘t really done Trek before. Harve Benett and Nicholas Meyer are probably the best examples. Or you look at someone like Ira Steven Behr. They all drastically changed the direction of their work from previous iterations of Trek, but they never seemed to break it. DS9 can be kind of a cynical look on the federation and it deals with themes of fate and religion but at it‘s core, it is a Trek show ... those are the 24th century Humans, that Gene envisioned, the show just challenges them. It asks, if they‘re really more evolved or if it’s not Humans but the society they live in, that changed and then asks, what happens, if you take that away.

    Gene could be a huge pain in the ass from what I‘ve read and he had some truly terrible Ideas. But he didn‘t compromise the core of what he wanted his future to be like. He just got rid of the huge Ferengi Dicks, but never ever of the Idea, of what a 24th century human is like 😁 ... and say what you will about Rick Berman, but he also kept that Idea intact as best he could even though he clearly didn‘t believe in it himself ... he just missed the point, where he should have found a successor for himself ...

    Maybe Star Trek just needs someone with a vision again. A vision, that‘s more, than just doing a new Trek show or just recreating what old Trek Shows were. As much, als I like the Orville for example, there‘s not really something new there. Which still makes it a good show, but it sure isn‘t boldly going anywhere new.


    Damn! ... that wasn’t supposed to be such a long rant 😅 — but maybe someone gets something out of it 😁
  • ViperViper1186 Posts: 677Administrator
    edited February 2020 #45
    P5ych0p4th wrote: »
    Seven: If you want to make her a lesbian or bisexual, do so. It kind of makes sense given, that she would have discovered it in kind of a logical way instead of being pressured into something buy societal norms. But have it at least serve the story somewhat. It was kind of just there because female villains in Star Trek now have to be lesbians I guess (I.e. the emperor in discovery) — but my bigger problem is making her a coldblooded murderer without any way for her character to come back from that. That feels like a betrail of the seasons of developement she had in Voyager.

    I liked the episode, and frankly don't have the energy to combat the negativity here. But where was it mentioned that she was gay or bisexual in this episode?

    Post edited by Viper on
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    @Viper ... I‘d have to watch it again, which I frankly don‘t have the stomach to do right now, but it was heavily implied in their dialogue during the first confrontation in the bar. But to be fair, that‘s not an aspect that‘s too important to me. I just added absolutely nothing to the story and the „evil women are always lesbians“ ist a TV Trope that is so incredibly homophobic, that it shouldn‘t be in a Trek show of all things. Let alone twice, when you count discovery - a show that did the representation of homosexuals actually surprisingly well up to that point.


    You don‘t have to counter all my points, however I‘m curious, as to why you liked the Episode. As I said, it‘s not, that I just don‘t like it, it‘s that I simply can‘t understand how anyone could. At least through the lens of Star Trek. If you‘d like, I will not answer on your post (except a „thank you“ may be 😁) ... but I‘d just like to understand.
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    @Viper, your right there is a lot of negativity towards this show. But that is because we are not liking what we are seeing, we are only

    If you like it that fine no one here will tell your wrong for liking it. I agree with @P5ych0p4th tell us what you liked about it.
    Get a conversation going.

    There Should be no name calling or insults for sharing YHO.
    We are all fans here, and debating between fans is what fan do.
  • sorceress21sorceress21263 Posts: 574Member
    edited February 2020 #48
    @P5ych0p4th

    I think you nailed it on all points.....Obviously, the issue with Picard is that the production staff clearly doesn't "know" Trek or have leadership that does. Picard may as well be another franchise entirely. There is so little resemblance to the prime canon series and films it's all but unrecognizable which is precisely what I was hoping Picard would avoid.

    I've long wanted a Trek series that dealt with a "Privateer" crew that wasn't based on a Starfleet vessel or characters so we could see the "underside" of the Trek universe. However, this, well this is just damn awful. Picard acting like some evil French madman straight out of Austin Powers was more then I think I can take. I mean apart from the disconnect in style, dialogue and production design continuity Picard isn't even a good show thus far on its own merits!

    If the producers wanted to do nonsensical flashy TV scifi why not just create a whole new franchise from scratch? That really seems to me to be what the desire of every production team we've seen with the last three just ridiculously bad Trek movies as well as Discovery really wanted. It was like the studio told them to make Trek and they all collectively said "awwwwww do we HAVE to ?", "Yes I'm afraid you do children!" "Fuck, shit, ass, crap," the liberal kiddies all screamed, "Okay mom, we'll do it...I guess!"

    They wouldn't have needed to change much for it all to have been something totally new and even well liked. It's clear hear the artistic interests were certainly out in the back seat over profit rising in the front.
    Post edited by sorceress21 on
  • GuerrillaGuerrilla521 HelsinkiPosts: 2,723Administrator
    I split this up from the general Trek news thread. No need to watch out for spoilers now. :)
    Comco: i entered it manually in the back end
    Join our fancy Discord Server!
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    I surprised the number of bodies in Picard so Far.
    Follow the count in this Video below for Episode 1 to 5

  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    Just watched the new episode and posted my thoughts on Trekmovie — currently awaiting the insults over there 😁

    Anyway. Here‘s my little review of the episode:

    Well it‘s a step up from last week but overall the show just isn’t growing on me. The kiss was unnecessary but it seems like we just can’t have shows without copious amounts of sex anymore. Trek shows used to imply the sex if it was there at all and that was a good thing. If every other show does it, it differentiates your show; makes you stand out from the crowd. And I do remember that people didn’t exactly cheer, when the producers tried, to make Enterprise „sexier“ by having all that PG nudity. It‘s a general problem with having Trek in a streaming service now, I guess ... just because you can get away with more stuff, doesn’t mean, it makes the show better. Not having all that stuff, actually made the depicted future almost unnaturally clean. Which was kind of the point, if you think about the universe, Gene wanted depicted on screen.

    The Rafi-is-an-alcoholic/addict is already getting on my nerves. It‘s a generic storyline you could do in any show. If you‘re not doing anything special with it, why have it in there at all? Just addiction is boring. We‘ve seen it a thousand times - and better - in other shows. If you want to do it, fine. But show me what addiction and dealing with addiction is like in the future. How we can be better than we‘re today. That‘s what Star Trek used to be about after all. How humans can become better in the future. Showing a humanity that‘s left its infancy. Sure, you could say, that addiction is one thing, that doesn’t change and that would be a fair point. But you’d still need to find a way, to tell it through the lens of a science fiction show. Otherwise: why have it in your SciFi show at all?

    Same again with the language. I hate the contemporary language and generic dialogue. Star Trek always had a very specific way of talking. A very deliberate way that was different from the usual dialogue on literally every other show on TV. it differentiated Trek from everything else on TV. It was An important part of what made the show special. It added to the universe. So why in the everloving fuck would you change that?! It‘s pretty much the sole reason, I speak English today instead of just my native German. It always was one of the most intelligent details of the show: the way humanity had changed over the centuries would of course bring with it a familiar yet different more clean, deliberate way of talking. You could even say, that it‘s the universal translator, which wouldn’t do colloquial English but an idealised form of it.

    On a matter of taste: I hate those holographic displays. They look stupid and they‘re more inconvenient, than just regular interfaces. They also don‘t really make sense in Universe. The Star Trek Holograms were always those perfect recreations of what they‘re supposed to be. So I get, that in 2399 you‘d have a stick, that - when activated - turns into your tricorder or your desktop PC being a hologram, that just „materialises“ on the desk. However they would not look like those translucent Star Wars Holograms but like actual physical objects. I mean, that‘s what the mobile emitter was all about.

    As for the Story. The Actress, who playes Soji does a great Job, but I really don’t care about her storyline at all. And her incestious romulan boyfriend is just a plain weird character. Picards arc didn‘t really make sense, since we had a whole movie, where he learned that the Borg are just victims and not the monsters, he thought them to be since „Best of both Worlds“. He even overcame his PTSD by the end of that movie. So having the same arc again condensed into 10 Minutes of screentime, was pretty much useless. I do believe, that the freeing of Borg on a massive scale, could have been a really interesting story, had it not been embedded in that weird romulan conspiracy storyline. But still .... that part was the highpoint of the episode for me.

    Also: was that Transporter the same one, the Voyager crew tried to buy by trading in the Stories in the Databanks of the ship? If so, wasn’t the point of that episode, that it only works near the planet? (Not really important, just thought of it 😁)

    Overall a pretty middle of the road episode. Looking forward to seeing John Frakes next week. But I don‘t think, I‘ll be watching a season two of this.

    Those are my thoughts. You don‘t have to agree with them. If you do disagree, feel free to do so, however I‘d ask you to be nice. We‘re all friends here after all 😉
  • ViperViper1186 Posts: 677Administrator
    P5ych0p4th wrote: »
    @Viper ... I‘d have to watch it again, which I frankly don‘t have the stomach to do right now, but it was heavily implied in their dialogue during the first confrontation in the bar. But to be fair, that‘s not an aspect that‘s too important to me. I just added absolutely nothing to the story and the „evil women are always lesbians“ ist a TV Trope that is so incredibly homophobic, that it shouldn‘t be in a Trek show of all things. Let alone twice, when you count discovery - a show that did the representation of homosexuals actually surprisingly well up to that point.


    You don‘t have to counter all my points, however I‘m curious, as to why you liked the Episode. As I said, it‘s not, that I just don‘t like it, it‘s that I simply can‘t understand how anyone could. At least through the lens of Star Trek. If you‘d like, I will not answer on your post (except a „thank you“ may be 😁) ... but I‘d just like to understand.

    Yeah, I just didn't read it that way. As for the rest, I just have been liking the show generally. Most of the complaints being made here are actually a positive for me. I don't care at all that we are not seeing a utopian Federation anymore. Or that things aren't so clean all the time. It's a refreshing look. It has been the strongest start of any Trek show ever.
    P5ych0p4th
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    I thought this episode was a bit bland over all, not the worst one yet.
    Not a Fan of the Soji storyline it really has not progressed since the show started and why the F would Romulan Boyfriend guy try to kill her after the learning of the possible location of where she came form? What if that was just another implanted memory and they get there and there is nothing.
    They just killed the only person they could learn the real location form given enough time. No, first bit of info try and killer he and "Activate" her in the process.

    Also she just got a positronic Brian the rest is human, right? so where is the superhuman strength and speed coming from?

    I total agree about Picard story arc in this episode. It was done in First Contact far better. He went into the lion den and killed the Queen and got over his PTSD for it. But being back on a Borg Cube would have effected him a little, but not as bad as shown here.
    Also where are the hand rails, even the Brog have the good scene to put them on there ship so a drone does not get knock/ fall over the edge during a battle or turbulence from some spaceial anomaly.

    What I did enjoy about this episode was the interaction between Picard and Hugh.
    Did we get a hint of what season 2 will be about with their little conversation? Would make for a far better storyline then what we are getting at the moment.

    Also on screen Body count has just jumped form 30 to 33. at this rate it going to head above 50 before the season out.

    @Viper, I don't mind seeing dystopia on Federation world, just not the Core Worlds like Earth. It should be on new member worlds and outer colonise.
    Hell we have even seen this before when O'Brian went undercover with a crime syndicate in DS9. Just another case of it been done before and better.
    If they had given a reason for dystopia to be on Earth, it might be easier to swallow. Due to the Dominion Wars the Federation had to pull back due to the loses during the wars and thing got a little worse after the war and have not yet recovered.


    I get the feeling that this whole dystopia thing is a set up for season 3 of Discovery.
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    Freak wrote: »
    Also she just got a positronic Brian the rest is human, right? so where is the superhuman strength and speed coming from?

    She‘s made from a positron but she doesn‘t have a positronic brain. At least that‘s how I understand it. Then again, I do believe, the authors don‘t really understand, that „positronic“ was just the name for Data’s artificial neural net. It consisted of artificial Neurons. It hat nothing to do with Positrons, which ist just the name for an electron with a positive charge (That‘s where the name is from, however TNG only borrowed the Name from Asimov, not the explanation as to how the technology works). Again ... even a mid tier SciFi writer would know that - I just looked it up and it’s literally one of the first sentences on the coresponding Memory Alpha article 🤦🏻‍♂️

    As for your question: she‘s a „flesh and blood Android“ ... so an artificial biological lifeform. No different from a clone really or a human baby conceived through artificial means. However you could give an organism like that super strength, as long as it doesn‘t break the laws of physics. Vulcans have elevated strength as do augments. So it‘s not impossible.

    Then again the whole Idea of a flesh and blood Android makes no sense the way they‘re doing it. I‘d understand going the T-800 or Westworld route. Or even Ilia from TMP. But not in a Way that makes them for all intents and purposes human. I feel like BSG got away with that because of their themes of Fate and Religion. A little Technology that‘s basically magic didn‘t hurt in that context and there never was any real explanation for it. Everyone just kind of accepted it. That‘s not a Star Trek approach but one, that can - and did - work in another show.
  • ViperViper1186 Posts: 677Administrator
    Freak wrote: »
    I thought this episode was a bit bland over all, not the worst one yet.
    Not a Fan of the Soji storyline it really has not progressed since the show started and why the F would Romulan Boyfriend guy try to kill her after the learning of the possible location of where she came form? What if that was just another implanted memory and they get there and there is nothing.
    They just killed the only person they could learn the real location form given enough time. No, first bit of info try and killer he and "Activate" her in the process.

    Also she just got a positronic Brian the rest is human, right? so where is the superhuman strength and speed coming from?

    This I can agree with. Dahj was more interesting and she had just one episode. I also don't like Narek at all and not because he's the bad guy or anything, but he's not compelling.

    And she's not necessarily all human. That's something we don't have any details on.
    Freak wrote: »
    I total agree about Picard story arc in this episode. It was done in First Contact far better. He went into the lion den and killed the Queen and got over his PTSD for it. But being back on a Borg Cube would have effected him a little, but not as bad as shown here.
    Also where are the hand rails, even the Brog have the good scene to put them on there ship so a drone does not get knock/ fall over the edge during a battle or turbulence from some spaceial anomaly.

    What I did enjoy about this episode was the interaction between Picard and Hugh.
    Did we get a hint of what season 2 will be about with their little conversation? Would make for a far better storyline then what we are getting at the moment.

    See, I don't agree that he necessarily got over his PTSD by killing the Queen. In fact, I don't think that happened at all. First Contact was more about friendship than about getting over past trauma. He definitely learned to let go of some of his rage though. But the trauma of being assimilated was never covered in that movie. I think the show did a great job at handling it though. His talk with Hugh was great.
    Freak wrote: »
    @Viper, I don't mind seeing dystopia on Federation world, just not the Core Worlds like Earth. It should be on new member worlds and outer colonise.
    Hell we have even seen this before when O'Brian went undercover with a crime syndicate in DS9. Just another case of it been done before and better.
    If they had given a reason for dystopia to be on Earth, it might be easier to swallow. Due to the Dominion Wars the Federation had to pull back due to the loses during the wars and thing got a little worse after the war and have not yet recovered.


    I get the feeling that this whole dystopia thing is a set up for season 3 of Discovery.

    Where did we see dystopian Earth though? Apart from Raffi, who has her own issues, everyone seems to be living well enough. The one bit that was odd was the working conditions on Mars. That was a bit much. But otherwise, I don't see it.

  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    edited March 2020 #56
    Viper wrote: »
    And she's not necessarily all human. That's something we don't have any details on.
    Okay, I could let that fly, she could be an agument like Khan and Bashir.
    Both where stronger and had more stamina than the Strongest human. Though what we are seeing goes into super hero status with those sort of jumps that Dahj made in that first episode. Even a Genetical Engineer Human could not do that, if they could they would be bigger than and standard human as the muscle and bone mass would have to be bigger.
    A human that was born and brought up on a planet where the gravity was higher than Earth norm (maybe around three to four time Earth Norm)
    could do it, but due to living in such a high gravity field they would look different to a normal human.
    The Expanse has done this well with people living in Zero G. (Sorry but that just science.)

    Viper wrote: »
    See, I don't agree that he necessarily got over his PTSD by killing the Queen. In fact, I don't think that happened at all. First Contact was more about friendship than about getting over past trauma. He definitely learned to let go of some of his rage though. But the trauma of being assimilated was never covered in that movie. I think the show did a great job at handling it though. His talk with Hugh was great.

    What ever Borg implant that could not have been removed at the end of Best of Both Worlds", let him have the PTSD moment at the begging of the film. This is how he knew the Borg was back before he was informed. (though never stated in the show, it is possible it also happened when the Borg was close by when he encountered them after TBOBW. He just did not know what to make of it.)
    He had another moment when they entered the battle around Earth as he froze with what was happing on screen (Crew member where asking for orders.) but managed to get his head in the game.
    After he found out the Borg was taking over the ship he was out for Revenge, it was only his talk with Lilly and rescuing Data did he work though the PTSD. The final act of getting over it was snapping the Borg Queen Spinal Cord. She was already dead. That was a symbol of him getting over it.
    He will still live with the Trauma of what happened to him, but it will not affecting him like it once did.

    Ask anyone that has suffered with PTSD, you can come to terms with it and live a normal like, but the Trauma that caused it will always be there.
    Viper wrote: »
    Where did we see dystopian Earth though? Apart from Raffi, who has her own issues, everyone seems to be living well enough. The one bit that was odd was the working conditions on Mars. That was a bit much. But otherwise, I don't see it.

    I'll grant you that with the exception of Paris. The city looked a little industrial and run down especially where Dahj was hiding when she talked to her Mum. Yes I know all cities would have there slums, but that should not be the case for anywhere on Earth.
    That would defiantly not be the case for the Capital City of Earth and the Federation. (I am assuming that Paris is the Capital as that is where the President of the Federation sits. Though we never been told where the Federation council sits, It would be a good guess that it also located there.)

    Post edited by Freak on
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    I must say, I kind of liked the newest outing. I guess my only criticism is, that it‘s the 7th instead of the 2nd episode. Imagine: Picard meeting Daj and going to meet Will and Deana with her. No stupid romulan secret agent plot, not fractal something cloning, no Borg cube, and no AI ban. Well, there wouldn‘t be much of a story left but at least, the few good parts would still be there 😅

    Apart from that: nice quiet episode. Some great looking shots on the planet. Good to see Frakes acting again and really impressed by how much they actually gave Sirtis to work with and how well she pulled it off. Not a fan of giving them a son, just to kill him off, so that they could have a throwaway line about robots not being a bad thing (which didn‘t even make sense: why would you ban all positronic technology, when Androids were the problem? Bashir used it on Barail without „harvesting“ it from an Android). But that‘s the lazy writing again: They just can’t write a plot thread without having it be someone’s destiny at the same time. Nothing can‘t just be without some greater Meaning. Without Fate. I do get, that you need to write a story but the Wold does not need to be connected to the characters. They just live in it. That‘s the difference between Star Trek and Star Wars (to me at least).

    But back to the positives: the backstory they did give Rikers and Trois son was really touching and their daughter was just adorable. The actress hat great chemistry with the Soji Actress who really shines again after all those dull scenes on the cube.

    And while I don‘t really care for Picards „Rag Tag Crew“ I do like all of the actors. Even Hurd is growing on me, when she‘s not being a stereotypical addict/tough chick.

    The romulan incest-twins still suck, but that‘s no surprise and killing off Hugh for no reason at all was just lazy drama again. His story was one of the the very few interesting things happening on the cube and they just couldn’t have that. There was the possibility for a twist/something shocking, so they sacrificed one of the few interesting storylines they actually had.


    This is discovery all over again. I wasn‘t a fan of the first season but it‘s not like there was nothing there. Lorca being a more militaristic Captain, that still gets the job - even if the Job is science - done was interesting. Or Ash being a POW and having to deal with PTSD over a serialised format was something. But no. Both were sacrificed for cheap twists. The other thing was a Spore Drive, that either needs an enslaved sentient species to run or an augment. There was no twist there, they just forgot.


    Having all this money. Having good set design,* great special effects and really good actors and than pissing it all away with the layziest of writing. I just don‘t get it. You can‘t tell me that there‘re no talented staff writers out there. Or that it would be that much of a risk having Picard and Discovery actually being different from a writing standpoint.


    *That goes more for Discovery. While I don‘t buy most of the stuff as 23rd Century designs, they‘re futuristic and well designed in the way, that they look good. As for Picard, a lot of the ships, the sets, the technology and even the clothes can seem almost shockingly lazy ... what is up with that? 🤔
  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    I found the episode to be boring. Nothing really happened in it.
    Okay we got a little action with what four Ex-Borg being murdered. (Treaty or not, The old Federation would not have stood for that.)
    Hugh death was pointless, I would have preferred his character develop more. There was a lot potential for it.
    We also got Elnor murder another four Romulans, bring the body count up to 41. (I will not be surprised if it makes it to 60 by season end.)
    As for Romulan incest-sister, why is she telling Hugh and Elnor that she part of the Super Secret organisation that even the Tal-Shiar thinks it a myth.
    Hugh and Elnor would have just though she was Tal-Shiar. Anyway this whole plot just did not move the story forward and was pointless.


    I did enjoy seeing Riker and Troi again, but their whole story in this episode could been done in a few min instead of dragging it out over the whole episode. Having these two great characters back, they could have given them something a bit more meaty to do.
    I though their daughter was okay, but like @P5ych0p4th I thought the whole plot point about their son dying was pure crap.
    Androids have been Banned, but AI have not. So how does that stop their son being cured.
    Once again it just goes to show that these writers don't have a clue what they are writing about.

    O did anyone else notice that the during the Mind Meld at the begging of the episode. a lot of the visuals match up with Spock's Mind Meld with Future AI/ Control from the second season of Discovery?
    It looking more and more like this will be leading into Season 3 of Discovery.

    Also we have only three episode left of this season. They really should have started to speed this story up a bit, so we can get a conclusion before the season ends.
  • P5ych0p4thP5ych0p4th444 GermanyPosts: 335Member
    Freak wrote: »
    O did anyone else notice that the during the Mind Meld at the begging of the episode. a lot of the visuals match up with Spock's Mind Meld with Future AI/ Control from the second season of Discovery?

    I didn‘t notice, when I first watched the episode but I saw it in a review video after writing my thoughts above.

    I wouldn‘t actually be too surprised if that doesn‘t end up meaning anything and the producers are just cuting corners. It seems more and more to me that they either don‘t have the money or the time to give that show the aestetic it should have. So why not use „generic apocalypse premonition no. 2“, since you‘ve already rendered it? 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Also: wasn‘t it established that doing a surprise mindmeld with a consious person against their will is basically rape? 🤔

  • FreakFreak1073 Posts: 4,345Member
    edited March 2020 #60
    P5ych0p4th wrote: »
    Also: wasn‘t it established that doing a surprise mindmeld with a consious person against their will is basically rape? 🤔

    Yes it is and I was thinking the same thing as I was watching it.
    I think it that was established in Voyager, with Tuvok and the other Vulcan on the ship when he was going though Pon Far.
    They also went back to that story point when they where on an alien world where the race was telepathic and they traded in stories.


    Funny how it the head of Starfleet command that doing this. :eyeroll:
    Post edited by Freak on
  • ViperViper1186 Posts: 677Administrator
    Freak wrote: »
    I found the episode to be boring. Nothing really happened in it.
    Okay we got a little action with what four Ex-Borg being murdered. (Treaty or not, The old Federation would not have stood for that.)
    Hugh death was pointless, I would have preferred his character develop more. There was a lot potential for it.
    We also got Elnor murder another four Romulans, bring the body count up to 41. (I will not be surprised if it makes it to 60 by season end.)
    As for Romulan incest-sister, why is she telling Hugh and Elnor that she part of the Super Secret organisation that even the Tal-Shiar thinks it a myth.
    Hugh and Elnor would have just though she was Tal-Shiar. Anyway this whole plot just did not move the story forward and was pointless.

    Damn, I thought plenty happened. In any event, Hugh's death, although not handled very well, will help develop Elnor. He was brought up in a very sheltered environment and doesn't understand the nuances of things. I expect we'll see a payoff next episode.
    Freak wrote: »
    I did enjoy seeing Riker and Troi again, but their whole story in this episode could been done in a few min instead of dragging it out over the whole episode. Having these two great characters back, they could have given them something a bit more meaty to do.
    I though their daughter was okay, but like @P5ych0p4th I thought the whole plot point about their son dying was pure crap.
    Androids have been Banned, but AI have not. So how does that stop their son being cured.
    Once again it just goes to show that these writers don't have a clue what they are writing about.

    I disagree. The scenes with the Rikers were very important. It helped settle down Picard and Soji for one. And I thought their backstory made a lot of sense. And AI doesn't need a positronic brain to work. That's why.
    Freak wrote: »
    O did anyone else notice that the during the Mind Meld at the begging of the episode. a lot of the visuals match up with Spock's Mind Meld with Future AI/ Control from the second season of Discovery?
    It looking more and more like this will be leading into Season 3 of Discovery.

    Also we have only three episode left of this season. They really should have started to speed this story up a bit, so we can get a conclusion before the season ends.

    Well, it makes sense if the plot is about AI getting out of control again. But it might also just be reuse of footage. Won't be the first time this is done in Star Trek. I also don't expect the story to be concluded by season's end. There's a season 2 coming after all.
    P5ych0p4th wrote: »
    Also: wasn‘t it established that doing a surprise mindmeld with a consious person against their will is basically rape? 🤔

    This was one scene that bothered me. I would have done the meld without showing any images. What they showed felt very underwhelming and not enough for her to turn against her former mentor so quickly.

Sign In or Register to comment.